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***DrunkenTeddy*** · 09-02-2021, 01:23 PM

09-02-2021, 01:20 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: So I changed the "Sex" field to Pronouns and changed the selections to:
Undisclosed
He/Him
She/Her
They/Them

If you see some people with it set to "male" or "female" right now, it's because I reused a field that was already there.. I've also added it to the registration form so new users will be asked.

I forgot to mention, you can go to "Edit Profile" under your user drop down in the top right to change yours.

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steveoiscool · 09-02-2021, 01:26 PM

09-02-2021, 01:20 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: So I changed the "Sex" field to Pronouns and changed the selections to:
Undisclosed
He/Him
She/Her
They/Them

If you see some people with it set to "male" or "female" right now, it's because I reused a field that was already there.. I've also added it to the registration form so new users will be asked.

this is what kids on the internet call a "pog"

PremierBromanov · 09-02-2021, 02:01 PM

09-02-2021, 01:26 PMsteveoiscool Wrote:
09-02-2021, 01:20 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: So I changed the "Sex" field to Pronouns and changed the selections to:
Undisclosed
He/Him
She/Her
They/Them

If you see some people with it set to "male" or "female" right now, it's because I reused a field that was already there.. I've also added it to the registration form so new users will be asked.
this is what kids on the internet call a "pog"

pogs in the chat for pronouns

***sköldpaddor*** · 09-02-2021, 02:17 PM

THANK YOU TEDDY THIS IS GREAT Smile

ACapitalChicago · 09-02-2021, 02:50 PM

09-02-2021, 01:20 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: So I changed the "Sex" field to Pronouns and changed the selections to:
Undisclosed
He/Him
She/Her
They/Them

If you see some people with it set to "male" or "female" right now, it's because I reused a field that was already there.. I've also added it to the registration form so new users will be asked.

Thanks for this so much!!!

S66 Damian Littleton

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**RomanesEuntDomus** · 09-02-2021, 06:20 PM

Probably a very unpopular opinion but I think this is a bit unnecessary and maybe even counterproductive. Not because I think that people shouldn't be allowed to choose their preferred pronouns, they absolutely should be, but because I don't think that peoples gender identity should be pulled to the forefront like that and define someones identity in this league.

One thing that is great about an internet league like the SHL is that it doesn't matter who you are in real life, it's simply your behaviour around here that defines peoples perception of you, possibly leading to the unlikeliest of friendships with people you'd have very little in common with in real life. It shouldn't matter if you are male or female or define yourself differently, what should matter is how you conduct yourself and how you treat the people around you. If someones gender identity is very important to him/her/them then they will tell you. It is not something that needs to be on display every time we look at someones avatar when they post something.

My suggestion wouldn't be to get rid of the pronouns section altogether btw, just to get it out of the avatar part and into a players profile section, the stuff that you get to see when you actually click someones name. Plus people could still add it to their Sig or something if it is a really important issue for them, it just shouldn't be a default setting that is mandatory for everyone, even if you can technically leave it at undisclosed.

***sköldpaddor*** · 09-02-2021, 06:32 PM

09-02-2021, 06:20 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Probably a very unpopular opinion but I think this is a bit unnecessary and maybe even counterproductive. Not because I think that people shouldn't be allowed to choose their preferred pronouns, they absolutely should be, but because I don't think that peoples gender identity should be pulled to the forefront like that and define someones identity in this league.

One thing that is great about an internet league like the SHL is that it doesn't matter who you are in real life, it's simply your behaviour around here that defines peoples perception of you, possibly leading to the unlikeliest of friendships with people you'd have very little in common with in real life. It shouldn't matter if you are male or female or define yourself differently, what should matter is how you conduct yourself and how you treat the people around you. If someones gender identity is very important to him/her/them then they will tell you. It is not something that needs to be on display every time we look at someones avatar when they post something.

My suggestion wouldn't be to get rid of the pronouns section altogether btw, just to get it out of the avatar part and into a players profile section, the stuff that you get to see when you actually click someones name. Plus people could still add it to their Sig or something if it is a really important issue for them, it just shouldn't be a default setting that is mandatory for everyone, even if you can technically leave it at undisclosed.

Gonna disagree with this. While I do think it should be optional (especially since some people may not actually be settled in their gender identity yet and may not want to decide on pronouns just yet), I disagree that “anybody whose gender identity matters to them will tell you about it.” My gender identity is important to me but that doesn’t mean I’m going to introduce myself as “Jess, a woman” to everybody I talk to.

Like it or not (I don’t) in sports-centric places, being a man is still pretty much seen as the default. Being a woman is part of who I am, but it’s not the ONLY thing I am, and I shouldn’t have to explain my gender to people for them to use the right pronouns for me. This is a clear, non-confrontational way for me to just have that out there. I know other people may have other opinions on this when it comes to their own pronouns but it’s kinda exhausting to me to have to constantly be saying “actually, I’m a woman and use she/her pronouns” - I don’t like calling people out, they get awkward and start apologizing all over the place and it’s just not fun for anybody. This spares me (and anybody who cares enough to check) a conversation I am actually kind of tired of having.

steveoiscool · 09-02-2021, 06:41 PM

09-02-2021, 06:32 PMsköldpaddor Wrote:
09-02-2021, 06:20 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Probably a very unpopular opinion but I think this is a bit unnecessary and maybe even counterproductive. Not because I think that people shouldn't be allowed to choose their preferred pronouns, they absolutely should be, but because I don't think that peoples gender identity should be pulled to the forefront like that and define someones identity in this league.

One thing that is great about an internet league like the SHL is that it doesn't matter who you are in real life, it's simply your behaviour around here that defines peoples perception of you, possibly leading to the unlikeliest of friendships with people you'd have very little in common with in real life. It shouldn't matter if you are male or female or define yourself differently, what should matter is how you conduct yourself and how you treat the people around you. If someones gender identity is very important to him/her/them then they will tell you. It is not something that needs to be on display every time we look at someones avatar when they post something.

My suggestion wouldn't be to get rid of the pronouns section altogether btw, just to get it out of the avatar part and into a players profile section, the stuff that you get to see when you actually click someones name. Plus people could still add it to their Sig or something if it is a really important issue for them, it just shouldn't be a default setting that is mandatory for everyone, even if you can technically leave it at undisclosed.

Gonna disagree with this. While I do think it should be optional (especially since some people may not actually be settled in their gender identity yet and may not want to decide on pronouns just yet), I disagree that “anybody whose gender identity matters to them will tell you about it.” My gender identity is important to me but that doesn’t mean I’m going to introduce myself as “Jess, a woman” to everybody I talk to.

Like it or not (I don’t) in sports-centric places, being a man is still pretty much seen as the default. Being a woman is part of who I am, but it’s not the ONLY thing I am, and I shouldn’t have to explain my gender to people for them to use the right pronouns for me. This is a clear, non-confrontational way for me to just have that out there. I know other people may have other opinions on this when it comes to their own pronouns but it’s kinda exhausting to me to have to constantly be saying “actually, I’m a woman and use she/her pronouns” - I don’t like calling people out, they get awkward and start apologizing all over the place and it’s just not fun for anybody. This spares me (and anybody who cares enough to check) a conversation I am actually kind of tired of having.

Besides, "undisclosed" is one of the options so we can literally have it all!

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 09-02-2021, 06:57 PM

09-02-2021, 06:32 PMsköldpaddor Wrote:
09-02-2021, 06:20 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Probably a very unpopular opinion but I think this is a bit unnecessary and maybe even counterproductive. Not because I think that people shouldn't be allowed to choose their preferred pronouns, they absolutely should be, but because I don't think that peoples gender identity should be pulled to the forefront like that and define someones identity in this league.

One thing that is great about an internet league like the SHL is that it doesn't matter who you are in real life, it's simply your behaviour around here that defines peoples perception of you, possibly leading to the unlikeliest of friendships with people you'd have very little in common with in real life. It shouldn't matter if you are male or female or define yourself differently, what should matter is how you conduct yourself and how you treat the people around you. If someones gender identity is very important to him/her/them then they will tell you. It is not something that needs to be on display every time we look at someones avatar when they post something.

My suggestion wouldn't be to get rid of the pronouns section altogether btw, just to get it out of the avatar part and into a players profile section, the stuff that you get to see when you actually click someones name. Plus people could still add it to their Sig or something if it is a really important issue for them, it just shouldn't be a default setting that is mandatory for everyone, even if you can technically leave it at undisclosed.

Gonna disagree with this. While I do think it should be optional (especially since some people may not actually be settled in their gender identity yet and may not want to decide on pronouns just yet), I disagree that “anybody whose gender identity matters to them will tell you about it.” My gender identity is important to me but that doesn’t mean I’m going to introduce myself as “Jess, a woman” to everybody I talk to.

Like it or not (I don’t) in sports-centric places, being a man is still pretty much seen as the default. Being a woman is part of who I am, but it’s not the ONLY thing I am, and I shouldn’t have to explain my gender to people for them to use the right pronouns for me. This is a clear, non-confrontational way for me to just have that out there. I know other people may have other opinions on this when it comes to their own pronouns but it’s kinda exhausting to me to have to constantly be saying “actually, I’m a woman and use she/her pronouns” - I don’t like calling people out, they get awkward and start apologizing all over the place and it’s just not fun for anybody. This spares me (and anybody who cares enough to check) a conversation I am actually kind of tired of having.

Thank you for the respectful and constructive reply!

See, I think this is a very personal preference that doesnt nearly apply to everyone. There might be other women or non-majority identities out there that prefer to not stand out, to not be defined by that part of their identity in a space where they can just be a regular member of the community like everyone else - especially given the amount of sexism or discrimination that many of these groups still disproportionally face in society. This here can be an avenue to escape from all that and where no ones cares about your age or gender or sexual orientation, they just care whether you are nice or not. Although I acknowledge that this is a tricky line of argumentation because we also don't want people to be bullied into not being open about themselves by the shitty factors mentioned above.

Still... For you being known as a woman around here is great, but for others it's the exact thing they don't want. They don't want to be seen as "the woman", but simply as "the award-winning GM", "the teammate you can always rely on" or "the superstar forward". Even if they don't have a problem with their gender being public knowledge, they still don't want to have a big "look here, she is a woman" sign above their heads every time they make a post. I mean the same goes for things like age or nationality, none of these things need to be a secret and many people share them openly, but we don't mark every one of their posts with "look, this guy is super young/old" or "hey look, he is from an exotic country". Judge someone by their actions, not their identity.

PS: Yes, I know Undisclosed is an option. Still, I think we are setting a very clear example and push people in a certain direction and somewhat pressure them into disclosing this information merely by placing the category so prominently.

***SDCore*** · 09-02-2021, 07:22 PM

09-02-2021, 06:57 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote:
09-02-2021, 06:32 PMsköldpaddor Wrote: Gonna disagree with this. While I do think it should be optional (especially since some people may not actually be settled in their gender identity yet and may not want to decide on pronouns just yet), I disagree that “anybody whose gender identity matters to them will tell you about it.” My gender identity is important to me but that doesn’t mean I’m going to introduce myself as “Jess, a woman” to everybody I talk to.

Like it or not (I don’t) in sports-centric places, being a man is still pretty much seen as the default. Being a woman is part of who I am, but it’s not the ONLY thing I am, and I shouldn’t have to explain my gender to people for them to use the right pronouns for me. This is a clear, non-confrontational way for me to just have that out there. I know other people may have other opinions on this when it comes to their own pronouns but it’s kinda exhausting to me to have to constantly be saying “actually, I’m a woman and use she/her pronouns” - I don’t like calling people out, they get awkward and start apologizing all over the place and it’s just not fun for anybody. This spares me (and anybody who cares enough to check) a conversation I am actually kind of tired of having.

Thank you for the respectful and constructive reply!

See, I think this is a very personal preference that doesnt nearly apply to everyone. There might be other women or non-majority identities out there that prefer to not stand out, to not be defined by that part of their identity in a space where they can just be a regular member of the community like everyone else - especially given the amount of sexism or discrimination that many of these groups still disproportionally face in society. This here can be an avenue to escape from all that and where no ones cares about your age or gender or sexual orientation, they just care whether you are nice or not. Although I acknowledge that this is a tricky line of argumentation because we also don't want people to be bullied into not being open about themselves by the shitty factors mentioned above.

Still... For you being known as a woman around here is great, but for others it's the exact thing they don't want. They don't want to be seen as "the woman", but simply as "the award-winning GM", "the teammate you can always rely on" or "the superstar forward". Even if they don't have a problem with their gender being public knowledge, they still don't want to have a big "look here, she is a woman" sign above their heads every time they make a post. I mean the same goes for things like age or nationality, none of these things need to be a secret and many people share them openly, but we don't mark every one of their posts with "look, this guy is super young/old" or "hey look, he is from an exotic country". Judge someone by their actions, not their identity.

PS: Yes, I know Undisclosed is an option. Still, I think we are setting a very clear example and push people in a certain direction and somewhat pressure them into disclosing this information merely by placing the category so prominently.

One of the major things about gender identity is to not push people into choosing a side. Things like non-binary and gender fluidity is an issue that everyone can be better about. Undisclosed is there for people who don't want to, well disclose their gender identity. Many people, Jess is one (sorry for assuming friendo) where disclosing her gender identity makes life easier and more freeing. The fact we can do this with one simple click for those who want it, shouldn't be this controversial.

If you don't want to disclose it, which should be respected, then either don't choose anything, which I believe is an option or just do undisclosed. Simple.

***boom*** · 09-02-2021, 07:23 PM

09-02-2021, 01:20 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: So I changed the "Sex" field to Pronouns and changed the selections to:
Undisclosed
He/Him
She/Her
They/Them

If you see some people with it set to "male" or "female" right now, it's because I reused a field that was already there.. I've also added it to the registration form so new users will be asked.

Thank you!!

Only comment I have is that this doesn’t seem to be visible anywhere on the mobile site, but otherwise this is much appreciated!

mer · 09-02-2021, 09:08 PM

Thank you very much for suggesting/adding this!! I'm new to SHL and, for me, being able to display my pronouns and the ability to see others' pronouns (if they so choose) will really improve my interactions on the site and in discord servers!

***DrunkenTeddy*** · 09-02-2021, 11:00 PM

09-02-2021, 07:23 PMboom Wrote:
09-02-2021, 01:20 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: So I changed the "Sex" field to Pronouns and changed the selections to:
Undisclosed
He/Him
She/Her
They/Them

If you see some people with it set to "male" or "female" right now, it's because I reused a field that was already there.. I've also added it to the registration form so new users will be asked.
Thank you!!

Only comment I have is that this doesn’t seem to be visible anywhere on the mobile site, but otherwise this is much appreciated!

Yeah, there's no simple way to add it on mobile, but on the plus side I fixed an issue on mobile where you couldn't see when a post was edited.

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*Zoone16* · 09-12-2021, 12:00 AM

Michael Jackson’s pronouns were He/Hee.

Oh and this is a fine idea.

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