Gonna address these one by one because some points have merit and some points are covered as you will come to see.
meet players from other teams
Your draft class discord will help with that, as will your IIHF, WJC, and eventual SHL LRs. Those connections turn into more as well, give it time.
progress the knowledge of various facets of the game
Communal knowledge is kinda weird in a competitive setting, some is an edge, but most leaks out eventually because everything is at least transparent with what teams are doing. I'd hit up people in said LRs if you're looking to learn more about FHM.
facilitate annual meeting where all non-hockey issues are addressed
This is the core legit value in a player union. Having a voice for players is vital, though it is awkward when all the players also run the show. I do like the idea of a community elected person who holds no management/HO/departmental positions that has a voice at the HO/comish level, but it's a very specific spot. Overall, should happen. @grok
interface with the management of various teams on behalf of player concerns
Kinda the other part of above, which I agree on, right now that kinda falls to various HO's but a player oriented voice would be valuable.
if you want to meet new people, there are a plethora of non-team specific discords, though theyre not listed anywere. Try to get in on beans, or the SHL gaming discord
09-16-2021, 09:48 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: if you want to meet new people, there are a plethora of non-team specific discords, though theyre not listed anywere. Try to get in on beans, or the SHL gaming discord
09-16-2021, 09:10 PMsve7en Wrote: Gonna address these one by one because some points have merit and some points are covered as you will come to see.
meet players from other teams
Your draft class discord will help with that, as will your IIHF, WJC, and eventual SHL LRs. Those connections turn into more as well, give it time.
progress the knowledge of various facets of the game
Communal knowledge is kinda weird in a competitive setting, some is an edge, but most leaks out eventually because everything is at least transparent with what teams are doing. I'd hit up people in said LRs if you're looking to learn more about FHM.
facilitate annual meeting where all non-hockey issues are addressed
This is the core legit value in a player union. Having a voice for players is vital, though it is awkward when all the players also run the show. I do like the idea of a community elected person who holds no management/HO/departmental positions that has a voice at the HO/comish level, but it's a very specific spot. Overall, should happen. @grok
grow the game
Not sure how you mean
* - A players association could have a role/say in for example what leagues we have and adding new teams. i love hockey like most of us here. I just have weird ideas sometimes and one of my impressions that i got being undrafted was that "the man" was busy keeping the game fun. I've since met a few veterans who are really nice. There definitely seems to be a mid tier gap. i don't think even politics need be a factor. like there could be a rep from each team and a owner appointed chairperson for example. just to sum up the experiences and concerns some players may have.
interface with the management of various teams on behalf of player concerns
Kinda the other part of above, which I agree on, right now that kinda falls to various HO's but a player oriented voice would be valuable.
tl;dr, yes, but not for all those reasons.
Dominik Tretyak
#37
Anchorage Armada
Goalie
Magnitogorsk, RUS
I think what people don't really understand about a players union in sim leagues is that it literally does not make sense.
Unions representatives are the voice for the labor that pays the union dues. So in this case the labor is the players, who are we collectively bargaining against? HO? GMs? The Owners? There's nothing for us to negotiate for or against. We already have a voice and I know this person is new so they won't know this but Nour and Luke are extremely open to listening to suggestions for improving the league/site. Same with Teddy.
09-17-2021, 12:53 AMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote: I think what people don't really understand about a players union in sim leagues is that it literally does not make sense.
Unions representatives are the voice for the labor that pays the union dues. So in this case the labor is the players, who are we collectively bargaining against? HO? GMs? The Owners? There's nothing for us to negotiate for or against. We already have a voice and I know this person is new so they won't know this but Nour and Luke are extremely open to listening to suggestions for improving the league/site. Same with Teddy.
there's also no profit incentive for our "bosses". In regular sports, the players formed a union because they are all laborers and they wanted a fair share of the pie and protections and assurances for their health. They were unionizing against NHL team owners and the NHL itself (HO).
In the SHL, none of us makes any profit from any of this. In fact there are no owners, except site owners who lose money. Each player gets an equal share of whatever this community produces. There are only two things in demand for a player: ice time and success. But a fair share of those commodities is not a problem solved by unions, since one cannot take an unfair amount of ice time usually, unlike a CEO who could take in millions while their employees starve. Not so with our commodities. And at any rate, we can leave since it wont kill us to not work.
GMs do run teams with complete sovereignty, and this may be the only issue worth noting: that a GM serves forever and without contention. As long as they don't break the rules, a bad GM could run a team for eons. Usually the ecosystem we have sorts itself out, though. ie, players have power in that they won't sign with their home team if they hate their gm or think they're bad. In that sense, we have one of the most democratic workplaces you can get outside of an actual socialist company where the workers vote on production and what to do with the surplus. Every player i this league has a vote and the autonomy we have over our careers is unparalleled. We can sign a maximum 3 season and players become a UFA almost right out of the gate. If I want to go to team A and I get drafted by team B, i really don't even have to play for team B for very long before I willingly jump ship with no consequences.
09-16-2021, 11:36 PMTha_Lux Wrote: * - A players association could have a role/say in for example what leagues we have and adding new teams. i love hockey like most of us here. I just have weird ideas sometimes and one of my impressions that i got being undrafted was that "the man" was busy keeping the game fun. I've since met a few veterans who are really nice. There definitely seems to be a mid tier gap. i don't think even politics need be a factor. like there could be a rep from each team and a owner appointed chairperson for example. just to sum up the experiences and concerns some players may have.
so regarding this portion, which i think you meant to be outside the quote: This is an aspect that the Junior league HO, the recruitment team, and every junior league GM (and indeed vetern players on junior teams) are working towards every day. No one means to say that what you've asked are bad ideas. Quite the opposite, these are great ideas. The only issue is that we are already trying to solve these problems in ways that a players union might overlap. In that regard, it sounds like a lot of work for not much difference of result.
The "rep" in this regard already exists in the form of GMs. GMs are of course trying to win, but you'll see massive backlash from the league when a GMs actions are interpreted as setting a priority for success over player engagement and recruitment. For example, one set of GMs was accused recently of scheming in a way to keep high-TPE players on their roster as inactives -- players who had not posted on the forums in months but who were reportedly active in the LR. This type of serves as a great example because every junior GM (and indeed many of us non-gms) see this as putting winning over player engagement. Rather than roster new recruits or try to get actives on their roster, they were seen as playing high quality skeletons who did not help grow the league or foster engagement with the league.
All that to say, we recognize the problems that you've identified and over the course of the last 3 (or more) years, we've worked in different ways to solve them that a players union isn't furthering the cause of. However, i do think, as seven pointed out, that there's a few areas a players union could really help.
09-16-2021, 11:36 PMTha_Lux Wrote: * - A players association could have a role/say in for example what leagues we have and adding new teams. i love hockey like most of us here. I just have weird ideas sometimes and one of my impressions that i got being undrafted was that "the man" was busy keeping the game fun. I've since met a few veterans who are really nice. There definitely seems to be a mid tier gap. i don't think even politics need be a factor. like there could be a rep from each team and a owner appointed chairperson for example. just to sum up the experiences and concerns some players may have.
so regarding this portion, which i think you meant to be outside the quote: This is an aspect that the Junior league HO, the recruitment team, and every junior league GM (and indeed vetern players on junior teams) are working towards every day. No one means to say that what you've asked are bad ideas. Quite the opposite, these are great ideas. The only issue is that we are already trying to solve these problems in ways that a players union might overlap. In that regard, it sounds like a lot of work for not much difference of result.
The "rep" in this regard already exists in the form of GMs. GMs are of course trying to win, but you'll see massive backlash from the league when a GMs actions are interpreted as setting a priority for success over player engagement and recruitment. For example, one set of GMs was accused recently of scheming in a way to keep high-TPE players on their roster as inactives -- players who had not posted on the forums in months but who were reportedly active in the LR. This type of serves as a great example because every junior GM (and indeed many of us non-gms) see this as putting winning over player engagement. Rather than roster new recruits or try to get actives on their roster, they were seen as playing high quality skeletons who did not help grow the league or foster engagement with the league.
All that to say, we recognize the problems that you've identified and over the course of the last 3 (or more) years, we've worked in different ways to solve them that a players union isn't furthering the cause of. However, i do think, as seven pointed out, that there's a few areas a players union could really help.
As a general reply to the mention of J HO & J GMs, we get a lot of feedback and involvement from both players and the GMs when it comes to decision-making and we value it immensely. I've said it before and I'll say it again, J GMs are the best. Our GMs are often a voice for their players and relay how they're feeling about various issues or events. We do our best to get their input before making many decisions, since you'd be hard pressed to find a team in the J where the GM and Co aren't the people with their ears to the ground the most. The idea of a Player Association could be one worth exploring, but as of now I wonder how much it would actually achieve
09-17-2021, 10:57 AMPremierBromanov Wrote: since one cannot take an unfair amount of ice time usually
09-16-2021, 11:36 PMTha_Lux Wrote: * - A players association could have a role/say in for example what leagues we have and adding new teams. i love hockey like most of us here. I just have weird ideas sometimes and one of my impressions that i got being undrafted was that "the man" was busy keeping the game fun. I've since met a few veterans who are really nice. There definitely seems to be a mid tier gap. i don't think even politics need be a factor. like there could be a rep from each team and a owner appointed chairperson for example. just to sum up the experiences and concerns some players may have.
so regarding this portion, which i think you meant to be outside the quote: This is an aspect that the Junior league HO, the recruitment team, and every junior league GM (and indeed vetern players on junior teams) are working towards every day. No one means to say that what you've asked are bad ideas. Quite the opposite, these are great ideas. The only issue is that we are already trying to solve these problems in ways that a players union might overlap. In that regard, it sounds like a lot of work for not much difference of result.
The "rep" in this regard already exists in the form of GMs. GMs are of course trying to win, but you'll see massive backlash from the league when a GMs actions are interpreted as setting a priority for success over player engagement and recruitment. For example, one set of GMs was accused recently of scheming in a way to keep high-TPE players on their roster as inactives -- players who had not posted on the forums in months but who were reportedly active in the LR. This type of serves as a great example because every junior GM (and indeed many of us non-gms) see this as putting winning over player engagement. Rather than roster new recruits or try to get actives on their roster, they were seen as playing high quality skeletons who did not help grow the league or foster engagement with the league.
All that to say, we recognize the problems that you've identified and over the course of the last 3 (or more) years, we've worked in different ways to solve them that a players union isn't furthering the cause of. However, i do think, as seven pointed out, that there's a few areas a players union could really help.
yeah, this is what i was getting at.
Dominik Tretyak
#37
Anchorage Armada
Goalie
Magnitogorsk, RUS
09-17-2021, 12:53 AMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote: I think what people don't really understand about a players union in sim leagues is that it literally does not make sense.
Unions representatives are the voice for the labor that pays the union dues. So in this case the labor is the players, who are we collectively bargaining against? HO? GMs? The Owners? There's nothing for us to negotiate for or against. We already have a voice and I know this person is new so they won't know this but Nour and Luke are extremely open to listening to suggestions for improving the league/site. Same with Teddy.
there's also no profit incentive for our "bosses". In regular sports, the players formed a union because they are all laborers and they wanted a fair share of the pie and protections and assurances for their health. They were unionizing against NHL team owners and the NHL itself (HO).
In the SHL, none of us makes any profit from any of this. In fact there are no owners, except site owners who lose money. Each player gets an equal share of whatever this community produces. There are only two things in demand for a player: ice time and success. But a fair share of those commodities is not a problem solved by unions, since one cannot take an unfair amount of ice time usually, unlike a CEO who could take in millions while their employees starve. Not so with our commodities. And at any rate, we can leave since it wont kill us to not work.
GMs do run teams with complete sovereignty, and this may be the only issue worth noting: that a GM serves forever and without contention. As long as they don't break the rules, a bad GM could run a team for eons. Usually the ecosystem we have sorts itself out, though. ie, players have power in that they won't sign with their home team if they hate their gm or think they're bad. In that sense, we have one of the most democratic workplaces you can get outside of an actual socialist company where the workers vote on production and what to do with the surplus. Every player i this league has a vote and the autonomy we have over our careers is unparalleled. We can sign a maximum 3 season and players become a UFA almost right out of the gate. If I want to go to team A and I get drafted by team B, i really don't even have to play for team B for very long before I willingly jump ship with no consequences.
Take note people, This is one of the upsides of being a socialist, you actually understand what unions are for.
09-17-2021, 02:41 PMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote: Take note people, This is one of the upsides of being a socialist, you actually understand what unions are for.
09-17-2021, 03:26 PM(This post was last modified: 09-17-2021, 03:27 PM by caltroit_red_flames.)
09-17-2021, 02:56 PMWally Wrote:
09-17-2021, 02:41 PMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote: Take note people, This is one of the upsides of being a socialist, you actually understand what unions are for.
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