12-07-2021, 12:18 PM(This post was last modified: 12-07-2021, 12:20 PM by Henrik.)
I like the idea of having a middle tier league, maybe based in Europe, but I think the main issue right now is the amount of players you could feasible get into it. If we were to have a larger playerbase and where players would fight tooth and nail to get into the SHL proper I could definitely see it being a great addition but at the moment I'm not sure what function it would serve. Alternatively, if we have an influx of mid level earners this would be a great place for those players to get ice time and feel valued as well as for veteran players to play out the last couple of seasons in their careers.
I do love the idea of a middle league though, always have.
12-07-2021, 11:54 AMSpartan Wrote: Just for shits and gigs, I think this could be a decent time to point at the VHL (oh the audacity!) as they've just implemented a mid-tier league for a couple of reasons, and they could be used as a point of reference when understanding how a mid-tier league would work, how it impacts members, and how it would be implemented.
The biggest reason for implementing the middle league was due to roster issues at both the VHL level, and the VHLM (SMJHL equivalent) level. Unlike the J, which has multiple caps based on season in the J, the VHLM had a hard cap at 250 TPE for all players (keeping in mind that the elite tier player in the VHL will finish their 8 season career with about 1300-1400 TPE earned). The general turnaround time for a player in the VHLM would be about 1 full season, while here in the SHL, it could be 3-4 seasons. The VHL generally runs 6-4-2's since they use STHS, and the 3rd and 4th lines are just dull to play on. When the number of active players started consistently exceeding that desired roster size, we added the VHLE, the mid tier league.
Caps:
30-200 -> VHLM
201-400 -> VHLE
350+ -> VHL (350 soft cap to get called up)
The reception was overall very mixed, with some veterans wanting to get to the VHL as quickly as possible. I was one of them, and I played one season in the VHLM and made sure to hit 350 TPE so that I could skip the VHLE and get the max number of seasons in the VHL. Careers were extended from 8 seasons post draft to 9 seasons post draft in order to accommodate for the extra season the average player would spend in the VHLE instead. It is true, some people really do not like an artificial barrier in the middle, while others who aren't max earners are more than happy to be an elite players in the VHLE instead of fringe 2nd line players on mediocre teams in the VHL. There are arguments over whether the VHLE has actually provided more benefit than caused harm, but since we're only midway through the 2nd season of its existence, it's a bit too early to tell. In my opinion, there's a lot of potential for it, but it brings its own issues as well that I'd be happy to talk about if anyone cares.
I think that, the way the VHL is set up helps with that. If I’m not mistaken like you said for the VHL it is mostly a 2 line, 2 D-pairing league. On the flip side especially in the SMJHL it’s a 4 line league with the SHL being a 3 line league.
For the SMJHL 4 lines work because you really only spend 1 season on thé 4th line if ever and then catapult up to the top 9.
If you were to split the SMJHL into an actual junior league and a AHL. The SMJHL has to be a 2/3 line league because it would be very volatile because they would only be there for 1-2 seasons. I don’t think many people would accept that tbh. The SMJHL is a very old league with rich history which would get gutted from this.
If you do something like what the VHL does
SMJHL 155 - 425 tpe (2 seasons)
AHL 426 - 800 tpe (2 seasons)
SHL whenever (8-25 seasons)
You just want to see an AHL so you can apply more TPE past 425
12-07-2021, 11:54 AMSpartan Wrote: Just for shits and gigs, I think this could be a decent time to point at the VHL (oh the audacity!) as they've just implemented a mid-tier league for a couple of reasons, and they could be used as a point of reference when understanding how a mid-tier league would work, how it impacts members, and how it would be implemented.
The biggest reason for implementing the middle league was due to roster issues at both the VHL level, and the VHLM (SMJHL equivalent) level. Unlike the J, which has multiple caps based on season in the J, the VHLM had a hard cap at 250 TPE for all players (keeping in mind that the elite tier player in the VHL will finish their 8 season career with about 1300-1400 TPE earned). The general turnaround time for a player in the VHLM would be about 1 full season, while here in the SHL, it could be 3-4 seasons. The VHL generally runs 6-4-2's since they use STHS, and the 3rd and 4th lines are just dull to play on. When the number of active players started consistently exceeding that desired roster size, we added the VHLE, the mid tier league.
Caps:
30-200 -> VHLM
201-400 -> VHLE
350+ -> VHL (350 soft cap to get called up)
The reception was overall very mixed, with some veterans wanting to get to the VHL as quickly as possible. I was one of them, and I played one season in the VHLM and made sure to hit 350 TPE so that I could skip the VHLE and get the max number of seasons in the VHL. Careers were extended from 8 seasons post draft to 9 seasons post draft in order to accommodate for the extra season the average player would spend in the VHLE instead. It is true, some people really do not like an artificial barrier in the middle, while others who aren't max earners are more than happy to be an elite players in the VHLE instead of fringe 2nd line players on mediocre teams in the VHL. There are arguments over whether the VHLE has actually provided more benefit than caused harm, but since we're only midway through the 2nd season of its existence, it's a bit too early to tell. In my opinion, there's a lot of potential for it, but it brings its own issues as well that I'd be happy to talk about if anyone cares.
I think that, the way the VHL is set up helps with that. If I’m not mistaken like you said for the VHL it is mostly a 2 line, 2 D-pairing league. On the flip side especially in the SMJHL it’s a 4 line league with the SHL being a 3 line league.
For the SMJHL 4 lines work because you really only spend 1 season on thé 4th line if ever and then catapult up to the top 9.
If you were to split the SMJHL into an actual junior league and a AHL. The SMJHL has to be a 2/3 line league because it would be very volatile because they would only be there for 1-2 seasons. I don’t think many people would accept that tbh. The SMJHL is a very old league with rich history which would get gutted from this.
If you do something like what the VHL does
SMJHL 155 - 425 tpe (2 seasons)
AHL 426 - 800 tpe (2 seasons)
SHL whenever (8-25 seasons)
You just want to see an AHL so you can apply more TPE past 425
Yes, that is very true that our overall roster structure and preferences in terms of roster composition helps this situation a lot. I also agree that the current SMJHL set-up works well, although I was a bit astounded to learn that I should expect to spend 4 seasons in the minors before getting called up. I think I could have even spent 5 seasons had I not been traded to Edmonton. While I really enjoyed my time in Newfoundland and still hang around their locker room, I think it's still a bit of an issue, to me, to expect to spend that much time in the J before I can continue my career where it really "counts."
The 1-2 seasons is also a valid concern, and one that has popped up in the VHL as well. When looking at retention, I've never liked that a new player in the VHL will sign as a waiver midseason for just that season. Then depending on if they sign after the trade deadline, they could be looking at entering just the VHLM draft, or if they join before, they will be in the VHLM, VHLE and VHL drafts. That's overly complex for me and a concern I have brought up in the VHL, as it's throwing way too much at a new member in their first, partial at that too, season.
For what it's worth though, I really enjoyed the various caps in the J since it allows for players with more seasons of experience to play in that regards. Of course I enjoyed it a lot more later on in my career instead of in my first two seasons when I was basically useless. I only stuck around because I had the sim league experience and friends in the LR that kept me from leaving. The VHL system allows for new players to become top players in their respective leagues very quickly, or to get significant minutes quickly. Since we use STHS though, lines 3 and 4 simply won't get much time, while FHM allows for GM's to actually spread out ice time amongst the 4 lines. Lots of interesting differences to compare and contrast to.
12-07-2021, 12:42 PMluketd Wrote: I think that, the way the VHL is set up helps with that. If I’m not mistaken like you said for the VHL it is mostly a 2 line, 2 D-pairing league. On the flip side especially in the SMJHL it’s a 4 line league with the SHL being a 3 line league.
For the SMJHL 4 lines work because you really only spend 1 season on thé 4th line if ever and then catapult up to the top 9.
If you were to split the SMJHL into an actual junior league and a AHL. The SMJHL has to be a 2/3 line league because it would be very volatile because they would only be there for 1-2 seasons. I don’t think many people would accept that tbh. The SMJHL is a very old league with rich history which would get gutted from this.
If you do something like what the VHL does
SMJHL 155 - 425 tpe (2 seasons)
AHL 426 - 800 tpe (2 seasons)
SHL whenever (8-25 seasons)
You just want to see an AHL so you can apply more TPE past 425
Yes, that is very true that our overall roster structure and preferences in terms of roster composition helps this situation a lot. I also agree that the current SMJHL set-up works well, although I was a bit astounded to learn that I should expect to spend 4 seasons in the minors before getting called up. I think I could have even spent 5 seasons had I not been traded to Edmonton. While I really enjoyed my time in Newfoundland and still hang around their locker room, I think it's still a bit of an issue, to me, to expect to spend that much time in the J before I can continue my career where it really "counts."
The 1-2 seasons is also a valid concern, and one that has popped up in the VHL as well. When looking at retention, I've never liked that a new player in the VHL will sign as a waiver midseason for just that season. Then depending on if they sign after the trade deadline, they could be looking at entering just the VHLM draft, or if they join before, they will be in the VHLM, VHLE and VHL drafts. That's overly complex for me and a concern I have brought up in the VHL, as it's throwing way too much at a new member in their first, partial at that too, season.
For what it's worth though, I really enjoyed the various caps in the J since it allows for players with more seasons of experience to play in that regards. Of course I enjoyed it a lot more later on in my career instead of in my first two seasons when I was basically useless. I only stuck around because I had the sim league experience and friends in the LR that kept me from leaving. The VHL system allows for new players to become top players in their respective leagues very quickly, or to get significant minutes quickly. Since we use STHS though, lines 3 and 4 simply won't get much time, while FHM allows for GM's to actually spread out ice time amongst the 4 lines. Lots of interesting differences to compare and contrast to.
Well even in STHS we used 3rd and 4th lines. When I was apart of the Whalers from S42-S48 we always had actives on the 4th line(including me lmao)
I always thought about it as you grind your way up. Year 1 is you start out and get acclimated to the league. You earn tpe and by the end of the season you doubled your tpe and start to contribute. Years 2&3 you be a top player on your team, contributing and trying to play for the cup. Year 4 is optional on whether you want to return or go to the SHL to start your career. Now that being said that with FHM you almost had to stay the 4th year, which is why HO had a myriad of changes in order to push it to 3 seasons again.
But I think the bottom line is creating a middle tier league for 1-2 seasons of sendiwns isn’t worth the effort it would take, as I think the SMJHL is doing a fine job as it is.
Now if you could argue PB’s explanation of having it as an actual AHL where SHL players could go down at end of careers, that would be interesting to theorize
12-07-2021, 11:54 AMSpartan Wrote: Just for shits and gigs, I think this could be a decent time to point at the VHL (oh the audacity!) as they've just implemented a mid-tier league for a couple of reasons, and they could be used as a point of reference when understanding how a mid-tier league would work, how it impacts members, and how it would be implemented.
The biggest reason for implementing the middle league was due to roster issues at both the VHL level, and the VHLM (SMJHL equivalent) level. Unlike the J, which has multiple caps based on season in the J, the VHLM had a hard cap at 250 TPE for all players (keeping in mind that the elite tier player in the VHL will finish their 8 season career with about 1300-1400 TPE earned). The general turnaround time for a player in the VHLM would be about 1 full season, while here in the SHL, it could be 3-4 seasons. The VHL generally runs 6-4-2's since they use STHS, and the 3rd and 4th lines are just dull to play on. When the number of active players started consistently exceeding that desired roster size, we added the VHLE, the mid tier league.
Caps:
30-200 -> VHLM
201-400 -> VHLE
350+ -> VHL (350 soft cap to get called up)
The reception was overall very mixed, with some veterans wanting to get to the VHL as quickly as possible. I was one of them, and I played one season in the VHLM and made sure to hit 350 TPE so that I could skip the VHLE and get the max number of seasons in the VHL. Careers were extended from 8 seasons post draft to 9 seasons post draft in order to accommodate for the extra season the average player would spend in the VHLE instead. It is true, some people really do not like an artificial barrier in the middle, while others who aren't max earners are more than happy to be an elite players in the VHLE instead of fringe 2nd line players on mediocre teams in the VHL. There are arguments over whether the VHLE has actually provided more benefit than caused harm, but since we're only midway through the 2nd season of its existence, it's a bit too early to tell. In my opinion, there's a lot of potential for it, but it brings its own issues as well that I'd be happy to talk about if anyone cares.
VHLE exists because in the VHL you can make a decent player by only clicking 2 buttons each week. The funny thing is that teams started filling up with those players and when teams were finally no longer 2 lines of forward/2 lines of defense the HO went "oh no we can't have that" and instead of letting those essentially semi-inactive earners play on the 4th line they created a middling league full of people who don't care about VHL.
12-07-2021, 11:54 AMSpartan Wrote: Just for shits and gigs, I think this could be a decent time to point at the VHL (oh the audacity!) as they've just implemented a mid-tier league for a couple of reasons, and they could be used as a point of reference when understanding how a mid-tier league would work, how it impacts members, and how it would be implemented.
The biggest reason for implementing the middle league was due to roster issues at both the VHL level, and the VHLM (SMJHL equivalent) level. Unlike the J, which has multiple caps based on season in the J, the VHLM had a hard cap at 250 TPE for all players (keeping in mind that the elite tier player in the VHL will finish their 8 season career with about 1300-1400 TPE earned). The general turnaround time for a player in the VHLM would be about 1 full season, while here in the SHL, it could be 3-4 seasons. The VHL generally runs 6-4-2's since they use STHS, and the 3rd and 4th lines are just dull to play on. When the number of active players started consistently exceeding that desired roster size, we added the VHLE, the mid tier league.
Caps:
30-200 -> VHLM
201-400 -> VHLE
350+ -> VHL (350 soft cap to get called up)
The reception was overall very mixed, with some veterans wanting to get to the VHL as quickly as possible. I was one of them, and I played one season in the VHLM and made sure to hit 350 TPE so that I could skip the VHLE and get the max number of seasons in the VHL. Careers were extended from 8 seasons post draft to 9 seasons post draft in order to accommodate for the extra season the average player would spend in the VHLE instead. It is true, some people really do not like an artificial barrier in the middle, while others who aren't max earners are more than happy to be an elite players in the VHLE instead of fringe 2nd line players on mediocre teams in the VHL. There are arguments over whether the VHLE has actually provided more benefit than caused harm, but since we're only midway through the 2nd season of its existence, it's a bit too early to tell. In my opinion, there's a lot of potential for it, but it brings its own issues as well that I'd be happy to talk about if anyone cares.
VHLE exists because in the VHL you can make a decent player by only clicking 2 buttons each week. The funny thing is that teams started filling up with those players and when teams were finally no longer 2 lines of forward/2 lines of defense the HO went "oh no we can't have that" and instead of letting those essentially semi-inactive earners play on the 4th line they created a middling league full of people who don't care about VHL.
At a level that is true, but mainly because we were having issues of competitive teams using free cap space to further load up on top talent and continuing to run limited, optimal rosters while other rebuilders/middling teams ended up having to run 10+ forwards or more than 2 defensive lines. Expansion would have been unsustainable, and parity would have gone out the window. It just made more sense to add a middle league to weed out the semi-active/more casual users than to increase the salary cap and allow the top teams to get even better.
personally, I think the idea is sound and would help fix some of the pain points we have NOW, but it would introduce it's own issues I am sure and would take a lot of time and effort to set up and review the rules and would maybe make the already struggling communication chain from top to bottom even a bit more layered/challenging, but who knows. There are a lot of things like this where we could rip out what we have now to make a better version, but there is a huge amount of effort associated and it may just make new problems unfortunately
I really appreciate the discussion. There are a lot of good points being made pro and con. The problem I'm really trying to solve for myself, is how to better deal with that transition from the J to the SHL. I thought the middle league could accomplish that not only for a group of players like me who have trouble sustaining activity after making the transition to the SMJHL.
Off this topic shoot me a message in answer to this question: Assuming that your build is decent, what TPE level do you think a player needs to be a decent third line forward who can score about 0.25 points a game (16 points or so in a season)? If i can last here long enough to get there, I might have a normal SHL career arc.
By the way, SHL GMs that is a hint not to draft me in the 1st round, lol. But, if someone steps up and can draft me with the 6th overall pick, I'm demanding a number of the beast award from the SHL. I would then have been drafted 6th overall in the SHL three times. (If you count the SMJHL, I already deserve the badge. St Louis picked me 6th this season.)
12-07-2021, 09:10 PMSabresFan Wrote: I really appreciate the discussion. There are a lot of good points being made pro and con. The problem I'm really trying to solve for myself, is how to better deal with that transition from the J to the SHL. I thought the middle league could accomplish that not only for a group of players like me who have trouble sustaining activity after making the transition to the SMJHL.
Off this topic shoot me a message in answer to this question: Assuming that your build is decent, what TPE level do you think a player needs to be a decent third line forward who can score about 0.25 points a game (16 points or so in a season)? If i can last here long enough to get there, I might have a normal SHL career arc.
By the way, SHL GMs that is a hint not to draft me in the 1st round, lol. But, if someone steps up and can draft me with the 6th overall pick, I'm demanding a number of the beast award from the SHL. I would then have been drafted 6th overall in the SHL three times. (If you count the SMJHL, I already deserve the badge. St Louis picked me 6th this season.)
I was at about 475 tpe in S56 when I requested to be called up from the SMJHL. In 50 games I had 21 points, but at the time of call up I was probably the fifth best active forward maybe? Team was coming off a heavy rebuild, so experience may vary.
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