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SabresFan · 12-06-2021, 02:18 PM

Exploring a Mid-Tier League: The MSHL

One of the best cases for a mid-tier league is expressed by a person whose handle, I always translated loosely as “RomansEatDonuts”. I think you all can figure out who that is and here is the quote.

The core point of comparison between the engines is that it's not about TPE available, it's about TPE applied.... Hell my last season in STHS was my only MVP-caliber season whereas after the switch to FHM I was never a top-caliber player in the league again. That right there is the difference between being a 1650 TPE player in a league where there effectively is a soft-cap of 1500 TPE, and being a 1650 TPE player in a league where you have 2200 TPE players that can effectively use all those TPE on useful attributes. And all that is felt even more by someone who isn't at 1650 TPE but 1500, 1200 or even lower.

RomanEuntDomas [RomansGoHome] is mostly interested in the experience of a peak player. I remember him as the highest TPE player in my past. Yet Romans does at least give lip service in the bolded part of the quote to the experience of either a casual player or a young player with far lower TPE. Others have complained about the length of time that it takes to become “a top player”. My concern is the length of time that it takes to become a “viable player” or an average player. I believe that a lot of players are lost this way. With this set of ideas in mind, I’m exploring what effects a mid-tier league might have on the SHL.

Benefits:

* The SMJHL would no longer need two different Cap levels, because “overage” players above 425 or 450 TPE would move to the SHL, unless they were called up to the SHL out of desperation. Players in the SHL with 450 to 750 TPE (or whatever upper cap is established...1000TPE?) would be able to apply earned TPE along the way and see the improvement from their efforts at this second level in real time season-to-season. I believe that this would keep a larger set of new players more motivated and engaged. I believe this would decrease the rate at which top draft choices bust (cough). If you go to the SHL at 750 TPE and improve to about 900 TPE in the second season, and an average player in the SHL is at 1500, the sophomore player won’t feel any improvement at all, unless randomness in the SIM provides it. By the third year at 1050 to 1100 TPE, it isn’t much better.

As I brainstorm on this, I’d extend that MSHL cap to 1000 and scrap the latest regression idea as implemented. The new regression idea could be modified to allow the S53 and S54 to keep more of their TPE and their peaks. The players coming into the SHL as rookies would be slightly more competitive and might have more staying power.

* With a Mid Tier league just as in real life, players who stumble out of the gate in the SMJHL would have a place to play and earn money for a while to support a second attempt with another player. For example, a player who is a top earner in their first season of junior could have some event in life that pulls them away from the SHL for a few weeks or for a full season. Under the current system, they may feel like the lost TPE has ruined their chances for a career in the SHL. There are simply too many high TPE players and prospects ahead of them. How many people have the “fantasy” of being a career 4th liner? The rhetorical question is placed to drive home that the player in this example has few good options. They can enjoy the SMJHL and recreate after the SMJHL. If they recover well enough by the end of their SMJHL career, they can attempt to grind it out and make it in the SHL, because the 150 to 175 “lost” TPE won’t matter much over the course of a full SHL player. The more casual players who do activity checks and weekly training only could end up like the minor leaguers who are emergency call ups for the SHL team. One of your players decides to retire abruptly, but you have this player in the MSHL who has been content earning 50 TPE per season and is now at 655, but still active. You call the player up as a best option. Maybe that player sticks as a good third line or third pairing player or maybe gets sent back down.

I believe that these ideas so far would help more directly with player retention and the pure enjoyment of the league than directly with parity. However, indirectly I believe that a more vibrant community of players would help some with parity.

Disadvantages or Problems to Solve:

* How would the MSHL be managed and SIMed?
* How would the MSHL be implemented so as to do the least harm to the SMJHL?
* How would rosters be filled, assuming that each SHL Team has an MSHL affiliate?
* Would multiple SHL Teams Share an SMHL affiliate?
* Would DFAs fill the MSHL rosters?
* Would some aging SHLers hang on in the MSHL for a season or two just for shits and giggles?
* Would this further negatively affect the recreate rate? (We don't want to reduce the flow of players to the SHL. We want to increase the rate of viable players entering the SHL)
* Is this an element of the cocktail on the path to greater parity?

To quote the jingle of an old TV show that I've been binge watching lately, "I can't do this all on my own. I'm no Superman."

I'm just hoping that the idea can be considered honestly and not trashed outright without consideration. If it merits further consideration, maybe the community can help build upon these first of my thoughts and we might just improve upon what is already a good experience here.

***By-Tor*** · 12-06-2021, 02:33 PM

Great idea in theory. Not enough dedicated people (managers, HO, and players) to pull it off. (At least today).

Credit to enigmatic, Merica, and tweedledunn for sigs

***luke*** · 12-06-2021, 02:58 PM

It’s something I thought about. The end conclusion is ripping out most of the SMJHL teams and putting them into the new league. If the funnel goes into the mid tier league then the SMJHL truly becomes a junior league. People staying for 2 seasons then going to the mid tier teams for 1 or 2 seasons then up to the SHL. It would solve the problem of needing more positions (as you just move teams to a new tier), With only a couple new positions really needed. (Now do you really need a MSHL HO? And other stuff)

If there is anything truly holding it back it’s actually doing it. SMJHL works. SHL works. Why create a new middle tier. There are pro’s and con’s. The whole SHL infrastructure is built from SMJHL and SHL so instead of changing 1 or 2 things you would have to reinvent the SMJHL and how it operates.

*JURT* · 12-06-2021, 03:56 PM

Yes nuke everything and make a new 3-leagues structure some players will probably get fucked but it's fOr tHe gReAtEr gOoD

For real tho I really like the idea of reducing the SHL and J by a few teams to make a new level and have kind of a CHL-AHL-NHL emulate structure where the young players that earn less can stay in the J longer and the higher-earning ones will move to the new league sooner and then the SHL, and a guy like my friend Viktor Zukal who just retired cause no-one took him into the SHL could have had a decent career in the middle-level league.

PremierBromanov · 12-06-2021, 04:03 PM

I only really ever hear two opinions about the SMJHL. 1) They want to spend as little time as possible in this league so that they can have as many seasons as possible in the SHL or 2) they want to spend the maximum amount of years in the SMJHL so their player can excel in that league and win a 4 star.

One of the reasons the regression system was changed, allegedly, was to increase the success rate of players in their first few years, since the older players would be seeing harsher regression (ironic side note, players have less time in the SHL to dominate, which doesn't help the people who care about it the most).

In that respect, i think a huge number of people would be against the idea of having, what they might describe as, another hoop to jump through and a shortened SHL career.

However, i dont think I'd mind this type of system, especially for players who earn half of what max earners do, or even aged players. I'd love the opportunity to roll a player at peak 1500 TPE and just kinda hang around in the AHL of simulation hockey, or regress there after 25 seasons a-la Chris Chelios.

***Wally*** · 12-06-2021, 04:41 PM

Beer League Sim League for retirees

grok · 12-06-2021, 06:50 PM

this idea has been tossed around every 6 months or so since i got here in assorted varieties. it isn't a bad idea but the detail isn't the limiting factor, it's the sheer volume of administration required to start. i would love to be proven wrong but we're struggling to find GMs and HO already. anyone who would have an appetite for that kind of management role on the site is a recent applicant to or is already in one of the HOs, and that's a total of like twelve people in a league where there are regularly 350 concurrent users online.

Evok · 12-06-2021, 07:51 PM

12-06-2021, 06:50 PMgrok Wrote: this idea has been tossed around every 6 months or so since i got here in assorted varieties. it isn't a bad idea but the detail isn't the limiting factor, it's the sheer volume of administration required to start. i would love to be proven wrong but we're struggling to find GMs and HO already. anyone who would have an appetite for that kind of management role on the site is a recent applicant to or is already in one of the HOs, and that's a total of like twelve people in a league where there are regularly 350 concurrent users online.

and lets not talk about finding simmers for a mid tier league that no one will really care

SabresFan · 12-06-2021, 08:22 PM

12-06-2021, 07:51 PMEvok Wrote:
12-06-2021, 06:50 PMgrok Wrote: this idea has been tossed around every 6 months or so since i got here in assorted varieties. it isn't a bad idea but the detail isn't the limiting factor, it's the sheer volume of administration required to start. i would love to be proven wrong but we're struggling to find GMs and HO already. anyone who would have an appetite for that kind of management role on the site is a recent applicant to or is already in one of the HOs, and that's a total of like twelve people in a league where there are regularly 350 concurrent users online.

and lets not talk about finding simmers for a mid tier league that no one will really care

Make this league and you have your simmer. I'd care. I own FHM 6. Problem solved.

Segi · 12-07-2021, 07:38 AM

Personally, I don't really see the point. Players might put up better numbers over their career, but most people care about their players SHL career numbers if anything. With a mid tier league, the number of SHL seasons will just be shortened. It might even lead to more people going IA before ever making it to the SHL, because it now requires even more work over a longer time to reach that goal.

I don't see that league having more than a hand full of active players at any point. It would be a collection trough for mid tpe inactives and inactive regressing players, with a bunch of inactive 425 tpe players that aged out of the SMJHL. I don't see many members being excited to manage a team in that league.

SabresFan · 12-07-2021, 08:49 AM

Well, it's obvious where this is going, so we can let the idea and the thread die on the vine. Thanks to those who responded, whatever your opinions were.

PremierBromanov · 12-07-2021, 10:09 AM

12-06-2021, 06:50 PMgrok Wrote: this idea has been tossed around every 6 months or so since i got here in assorted varieties. it isn't a bad idea but the detail isn't the limiting factor, it's the sheer volume of administration required to start. i would love to be proven wrong but we're struggling to find GMs and HO already. anyone who would have an appetite for that kind of management role on the site is a recent applicant to or is already in one of the HOs, and that's a total of like twelve people in a league where there are regularly 350 concurrent users online.

we do it this way: every time you win a cup, your team gets sent to the minors. And the only way to get back to the SHL is to be the worst team in the SAHL

***artermis*** · 12-07-2021, 11:06 AM

"How would the MSHL be implemented so as to do the least harm to the SMJHL?"

As someone who very much enjoys the SMJHL as is, @Jearim 's suggestion of having this mid-tier league be available after the SMJHL eligibility window closes (4 or 5 seasons) sounded like a very good compromise, however I realize this doesn't solve the problem some people have with earning TPE while being capped for those seasons they're still in the J

12-06-2021, 04:41 PMWally Wrote: Beer League Sim League for retirees

This has been done, and to an official extent :eyes:

***Wally*** · 12-07-2021, 11:14 AM

12-07-2021, 11:06 AMartermis Wrote: "How would the MSHL be implemented so as to do the least harm to the SMJHL?"

As someone who very much enjoys the SMJHL as is, @Jearim 's suggestion of having this mid-tier league be available after the SMJHL eligibility window closes (4 or 5 seasons) sounded like a very good compromise, however I realize this doesn't solve the problem some people have with earning TPE while being capped for those seasons they're still in the J

12-06-2021, 04:41 PMWally Wrote: Beer League Sim League for retirees

This has been done, and to an official extent :eyes:

But was there an official beer of every sim night? Smile

Spartan · 12-07-2021, 11:54 AM

Just for shits and gigs, I think this could be a decent time to point at the VHL (oh the audacity!) as they've just implemented a mid-tier league for a couple of reasons, and they could be used as a point of reference when understanding how a mid-tier league would work, how it impacts members, and how it would be implemented.

The biggest reason for implementing the middle league was due to roster issues at both the VHL level, and the VHLM (SMJHL equivalent) level. Unlike the J, which has multiple caps based on season in the J, the VHLM had a hard cap at 250 TPE for all players (keeping in mind that the elite tier player in the VHL will finish their 8 season career with about 1300-1400 TPE earned). The general turnaround time for a player in the VHLM would be about 1 full season, while here in the SHL, it could be 3-4 seasons. The VHL generally runs 6-4-2's since they use STHS, and the 3rd and 4th lines are just dull to play on. When the number of active players started consistently exceeding that desired roster size, we added the VHLE, the mid tier league.

Caps:
30-200 -> VHLM
201-400 -> VHLE
350+ -> VHL (350 soft cap to get called up)

The reception was overall very mixed, with some veterans wanting to get to the VHL as quickly as possible. I was one of them, and I played one season in the VHLM and made sure to hit 350 TPE so that I could skip the VHLE and get the max number of seasons in the VHL. Careers were extended from 8 seasons post draft to 9 seasons post draft in order to accommodate for the extra season the average player would spend in the VHLE instead. It is true, some people really do not like an artificial barrier in the middle, while others who aren't max earners are more than happy to be an elite players in the VHLE instead of fringe 2nd line players on mediocre teams in the VHL. There are arguments over whether the VHLE has actually provided more benefit than caused harm, but since we're only midway through the 2nd season of its existence, it's a bit too early to tell. In my opinion, there's a lot of potential for it, but it brings its own issues as well that I'd be happy to talk about if anyone cares.

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