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***SpartanGibbles*** · 03-03-2022, 07:56 PM

03-03-2022, 04:54 PMmarco999 Wrote: Regarding toxicity and whatnot, I don't want to start an argument or anything, so I'll keep it brief and won't comment any further on the issue I'm about to talk about. I was, like all other alum, kicked out of the Anaheim locker room. I devoted a good chunk of my time to that team and was contributing to it right until the very end, although not as much as I used to. This left a very bad taste in my mouth. It feels like everything I've ever done for the team (although it's not much when you look at it for the outside because ANA never had success while I was there) amounted to nothing. I was thrown out unceremoniously, like all other former members of the team, from S45 to today. It's another thing that kinda hit me the wrong way and my motivation for SHL-related stuff took a hit.

I felt that same sting the other day when I realized the ANA LR wasn't on my discord sidebar. I'll admit I haven't been active in there as an alum in a while since my interest in most of the league has cut down the past 4-5 seasons but it was nice going in every now and again to see how things were going. I won't lie I felt a little hurt just being thrown out with no message or explanation. I'm in the team HOF for both a player and management, I was the second draft pick in the franchise's history, I've always thought of ANA as my first SHL home, but when I decide to recreate I think I've moved from telling other teams to let me go to ANA to putting them much lower on my list of destinations. I know I'm not the only one, a few other alums also expressed similar attitudes after discovering they were booted.

***CampinKiller*** · 03-03-2022, 08:15 PM

03-02-2022, 09:01 PMWearingabear Wrote: GMs who complain about GMing don't have to GM. 30% of the GMs figured it out.

Ham didn't break FHM, more than FHM is to blame and they were the lucky ones that the file likes.

Pretty bad takes IMO. Do you know how hard it is to hire GMs right now? Saying the GMs that quit figured it out is a terrible view to have for the league.

Also HAM is definitely not lucky, but didn't break it either, they just found the meta.

spooked · 03-03-2022, 09:24 PM

The reality is, FHM is not working well, we even removed some of the things we had in STHS for some reason as well, which I won't understand.

There are not enough variety in players (part due to diminishing returns of maxing small set of skills, part due to literally no concept of play-style determination for a player in the player's hands) so any player can be built in any way almost as any time. GMs can just make decisions based on TPE, with almost no consideration on the build itself since there is no locked in aspect of a player that they will have to find a way to work into a strategy (not to mention no player in this league is bad at anything really).

The GM side is much too involved (too much testing/engine work required to feel like you have a chance, much more complicated than STHS was frankly) so you basically either need to lock strategies down hard so testing doesn't matter as much, or just block testing entirely since it's just being abused at this point.

I have never seen a game engine for a sports game with so little randomness in the result than FHM and when you apply that to a player driven league, you basically create a huge time sink with no payoff for most of the playerbase.

FlappyGiraffe · 03-03-2022, 09:44 PM

03-03-2022, 09:24 PMspooked Wrote: The reality is, FHM is not working well, we even removed some of the things we had in STHS for some reason as well, which I won't understand.

There are not enough variety in players (part due to diminishing returns of maxing small set of skills, part due to literally no concept of play-style determination for a player in the player's hands) so any player can be built in any way almost as any time. GMs can just make decisions based on TPE, with almost no consideration on the build itself since there is no locked in aspect of a player that they will have to find a way to work into a strategy (not to mention no player in this league is bad at anything really).

The GM side is much too involved (too much testing/engine work required to feel like you have a chance, much more complicated than STHS was frankly) so you basically either need to lock strategies down hard so testing doesn't matter as much, or just block testing entirely since it's just being abused at this point.

I have never seen a game engine for a sports game with so little randomness in the result than FHM and when you apply that to a player driven league, you basically create a huge time sink with no payoff for most of the playerbase.

Yeah, I do miss the miracle runs to the finals you would see in STHS with low seed teams, that kind of magic is gone with FHM from my observation

***boom*** · 03-03-2022, 09:58 PM

I don’t regret recreating, I’m really excited about the story I can build with Bordeleau, there’s avenues to go there, but GMing can feel like a slog sometimes. When we were down 2-0 to Texas in these playoffs, I ran some tests. The result was that 40% of the time, we won one game and lost in 5 instead of 4. The rest of the time was sweeps. The same odds happened the year before against Chicago. It’s frustrating to just hit a wall of a playoff series where you have no chance whatsoever. I value being a players’ coach and letting my team dictate the flow of their builds for the most part, but what am I supposed to do when other teams just force their players into builds and run with it and win more games that way?

I’ve wondered here or there if going back to the J would ever be in the cards - it’s not something I’m considering at the moment with how far I’ve worked to get here and I am not throwing away my shot, but there’s some nostalgia there for every team having a shot to go far in the playoffs.

tl;dr: I love love love GMing for the community I get to build and meeting amazing people. I hate the sim. I want this to be fun for the sim and community and will fight like hell for it.

Memento Mori · 03-03-2022, 10:40 PM

SHL and its community has a weird masochistic streak. Of the most similar leagues to it (ISFL/PBE/WSBL), it’s by far the grindiest, the hardest to earn money in, the longest time spent in juniors, etc.

In the time I’ve been here, there’s been very little desire to change that by league management (the example that always sticks in my mind was players and GMs asking for more PT passes and being told ‘no, we’re not going to be like other leagues’ with little further explanation) - the regression change is the only one I can think of, and making the league more user-friendly didn’t seem to be the main motivation behind that.

When I joined SHL, it was my 2nd league and I max earned (including the highest tier of equipment) for 3 seasons. I was sent down for a 4th juniors season so that my SHL team could call up a player with less TPE because of internal politics, and then finally called up by a GM who played my player for the fewest minutes of any player in the league.

By that time, I’d earned over 1000 TPE and been in the league for well over a year - but my player’s SHL career had barely started.

The wait to get to the position of second-year-SHL-player-on-the-third-line-of-a-playoff team has been so long that I’ve grown bored. New users are going to be inherently optimistic and don’t know what they’re getting themselves in for, but it’s no wonder that potential recreates don’t want to grind for over a year to get to the bit that’s supposed to be good.

marco999 · 03-03-2022, 11:19 PM

03-03-2022, 07:56 PMSpartanGibbles Wrote:
03-03-2022, 04:54 PMmarco999 Wrote: Regarding toxicity and whatnot, I don't want to start an argument or anything, so I'll keep it brief and won't comment any further on the issue I'm about to talk about. I was, like all other alum, kicked out of the Anaheim locker room. I devoted a good chunk of my time to that team and was contributing to it right until the very end, although not as much as I used to. This left a very bad taste in my mouth. It feels like everything I've ever done for the team (although it's not much when you look at it for the outside because ANA never had success while I was there) amounted to nothing. I was thrown out unceremoniously, like all other former members of the team, from S45 to today. It's another thing that kinda hit me the wrong way and my motivation for SHL-related stuff took a hit.

I felt that same sting the other day when I realized the ANA LR wasn't on my discord sidebar. I'll admit I haven't been active in there as an alum in a while since my interest in most of the league has cut down the past 4-5 seasons but it was nice going in every now and again to see how things were going. I won't lie I felt a little hurt just being thrown out with no message or explanation. I'm in the team HOF for both a player and management, I was the second draft pick in the franchise's history, I've always thought of ANA as my first SHL home, but when I decide to recreate I think I've moved from telling other teams to let me go to ANA to putting them much lower on my list of destinations. I know I'm not the only one, a few other alums also expressed similar attitudes after discovering they were booted.

I feel mostly the same way, glad to know i'm not the only one.

*takethehorizon* · 03-03-2022, 11:26 PM

03-03-2022, 07:56 PMSpartanGibbles Wrote: I felt that same sting the other day when I realized the ANA LR wasn't on my discord sidebar. I'll admit I haven't been active in there as an alum in a while since my interest in most of the league has cut down the past 4-5 seasons but it was nice going in every now and again to see how things were going. I won't lie I felt a little hurt just being thrown out with no message or explanation. I'm in the team HOF for both a player and management, I was the second draft pick in the franchise's history, I've always thought of ANA as my first SHL home, but when I decide to recreate I think I've moved from telling other teams to let me go to ANA to putting them much lower on my list of destinations. I know I'm not the only one, a few other alums also expressed similar attitudes after discovering they were booted.

03-03-2022, 11:19 PMmarco999 Wrote: I feel mostly the same way, glad to know i'm not the only one.

Felt this too. I was an ANA Co recently and although it was a short lived, I really enjoyed being part of the ANA LR after the fact because of the people. Being booted out of one of my favorite servers left a sour taste in my mouth.

I agree with alot of things everyone is saying. As much as I hate to say this, it's becoming more and more of a chore to update my player. My activity levels on both discord and the forums seems to be decreasing season after season. I came into the league with so much excitement as it was my first sim league but nowadays I'm lacking the passion. And maybe this is just me personally feeling burnt out - but it feels good to see i'm not the only one with similar thoughts. Hope it's only up from here.

Wearingabear · 03-03-2022, 11:58 PM

03-03-2022, 08:15 PMCampinKiller Wrote:
03-02-2022, 09:01 PMWearingabear Wrote: GMs who complain about GMing don't have to GM. 30% of the GMs figured it out.

Ham didn't break FHM, more than FHM is to blame and they were the lucky ones that the file likes.

Pretty bad takes IMO. Do you know how hard it is to hire GMs right now? Saying the GMs that quit figured it out is a terrible view to have for the league.

Also HAM is definitely not lucky, but didn't break it either, they just found the meta.

How hard is it?

My point is that if people spend most of their time complaining about being a GM, for whatever reason, they don't have to be one.
Nobody is being forced to be a GM.

HO obviously took note of that number and is make the incentives better for GMs.

spooked · 03-04-2022, 02:49 AM

03-03-2022, 11:58 PMWearingabear Wrote:
03-03-2022, 08:15 PMCampinKiller Wrote: Pretty bad takes IMO. Do you know how hard it is to hire GMs right now? Saying the GMs that quit figured it out is a terrible view to have for the league.

Also HAM is definitely not lucky, but didn't break it either, they just found the meta.

How hard is it?

My point is that if people spend most of their time complaining about being a GM, for whatever reason, they don't have to be one.
Nobody is being forced to be a GM.

HO obviously took note of that number and is make the incentives better for GMs.

Tell me when they start paying in real dollars and we have a deal. The incentive only works if you want what it provides, shl cash is nice but it's not really an incentive since you could earn the same on your own with less consistent effort/responsibility in any number of ways. There are way more jobs available now too than in the past from what I feel, so maybe that's working against the league too in the GM area. The J is probably over expanded which doesn't help, not to mention J gms have it better than us lol.

***sve7en*** · 03-04-2022, 07:42 AM

03-04-2022, 02:49 AMspooked Wrote:
03-03-2022, 11:58 PMWearingabear Wrote: How hard is it?

My point is that if people spend most of their time complaining about being a GM, for whatever reason, they don't have to be one.
Nobody is being forced to be a GM.

HO obviously took note of that number and is make the incentives better for GMs.

Not to mention J gms have it better than us lol.

That's a take. The jobs are wildly different sure, but to say that the SHL is harder is comical.

***boom*** · 03-04-2022, 08:01 AM

03-04-2022, 07:42 AMsve7en Wrote:
03-04-2022, 02:49 AMspooked Wrote: Not to mention J gms have it better than us lol.

That's a take. The jobs are wildly different sure, but to say that the SHL is harder is comical.

Having done both I wouldn’t say one is specifically harder than the other. In the SHL the sim is all-important and you have to have long-term vision, but in the J where you can sign people off the street midseason people skills are so so important. They’re different skill sets being tested.

C9Van · 03-04-2022, 09:04 AM

03-02-2022, 09:21 PMSlashACM Wrote: I've seen people come and go but it's rough rn. I was excited when we switched to fhm and now it's so fucking boring can't even watch a stream

Basically this. Not enough SHL money possible to make me watch this shite engine.

If I wasn't so far into my J41 career i'd have gone ages ago.

Opera_Phantom · 03-04-2022, 10:03 AM

03-03-2022, 10:40 PMMemento Mori Wrote: SHL and its community has a weird masochistic streak. Of the most similar leagues to it (ISFL/PBE/WSBL), it’s by far the grindiest, the hardest to earn money in, the longest time spent in juniors, etc.

In the time I’ve been here, there’s been very little desire to change that by league management (the example that always sticks in my mind was players and GMs asking for more PT passes and being told ‘no, we’re not going to be like other leagues’ with little further explanation) - the regression change is the only one I can think of, and making the league more user-friendly didn’t seem to be the main motivation behind that.

When I joined SHL, it was my 2nd league and I max earned (including the highest tier of equipment) for 3 seasons. I was sent down for a 4th juniors season so that my SHL team could call up a player with less TPE because of internal politics, and then finally called up by a GM who played my player for the fewest minutes of any player in the league.

By that time, I’d earned over 1000 TPE and been in the league for well over a year - but my player’s SHL career had barely started.

The wait to get to the position of second-year-SHL-player-on-the-third-line-of-a-playoff team has been so long that I’ve grown bored. New users are going to be inherently optimistic and don’t know what they’re getting themselves in for, but it’s no wonder that potential recreates don’t want to grind for over a year to get to the bit that’s supposed to be good.

I agree with this take. I've been in the J for so long that the only fucking reason i didn't just stop coming here is the fact that by now i've spent a considerable amount of time on my player, so i am curious to see what happens. If next season isn't somewhat interesting for me, i'll just put this league aside.

This league needs one of 2 things: either make regression come sooner so that there is a bigger turnaround on rosters so we don't have to spend forever in the minors with nearly 1000 TPE, or increase the "bonus" for GMs to entice them to take a GM job and expand the majors with a bunch of other teams so that more roster spots are available and players can play in the majors sooner.

Btw, i love the take that the league is going stale due to some teams being better than others, people wanting more parity and stuff like that, when every single change anyone tries to implement or suggest in this league is met by an incredible amount of users who fight against it because it will impact their careers and records and everything that comes with it. And i have seen a fair few of those users here saying "something needs to change to make this more interesting". Laughable.

karlssens · 03-04-2022, 10:48 AM

Over the years I've always found retention to be a bit difficult. Users come and go as others have said. The difference I have noticed though is that there seems to be a greater number of people that are leaving unhappy/frustrated. The bar of the average SHL user is much higher now (tpe grind/commitment wise) which can cause frustration when things don't work out, and the world straight up sucks a little more now which doesn't help either, but it sounds like HO has some plans coming up so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and see what happens.

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