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**RomanesEuntDomus** · 03-09-2022, 09:02 AM

I don't really have a specific point I want to make with this thread, just thought this would be interesting to share... So for those of you who don't know, the VHL is basically the other big hockey sim league out there, they are actually even older than the SHL but not quite as big. Back when the Passing-exploit was discovered and we decided to switch to FHM, the VHL of course took notice as well yet they decided to stick with STHS. It was an interesting crossroads I think where the two leagues decided on very different paths, with the VHL trying to fix things within STHS while we switched engines which fixed some problems but also created new ones.

Now I haven't followed the VHL that closely even though I have a semi-active player over there now, but it actually seemed to work decently well for them. The 40-Passing meta didn't spread as quickly as one might have expected and they were able to keep STHS viable when we had already given up on it. However, in recent seasons this matter has finally crept up on them as well, with one team winning Cup after Cup going all-in for the meta, essentially starting the same arms race that we are seeing here where the rest of the league sooner or later has to embrace a certain meta as well, if they want to remain competitive.

So the VHL finally felt forced to take action as well and this week they presented their solution for trying to fix the meta problem, while sticking with STHS. You can read what they decided to do here: https://vhlforum.com/topic/117081-hybrid...-the-meta/

I think it's a very interesting (and quite long read) and I don't really have a strong opinion on whether it's the right call or not, I just thought it might be worthwhile to share it over here so that we can get some perspective on how other leagues are trying to deal with their meta problems. Maybe we can draw some lessons from it as well, maybe we can't, but I suggest taking a look at what they came up with because at the very least, it's quite creative.

***sve7en*** · 03-09-2022, 09:26 AM

Ngl, it's a clever solution

Reminds me a bit of how some recent sport games (Madden is the first to come to mind) let you add to archetypes and reward with some combination of engine attribute increases.

***Chevy*** · 03-09-2022, 09:48 AM

FHM kinda has this to a degree that you can see on the roster pages for offensive and defensive attributes where individual ones are lumped together (skating, playmaking, hockey sense) and averaged as opposed to the individual attributes

***Patty*** · 03-09-2022, 09:49 AM

I have to imagine their solution is partly possible due to their update portal. Minimizing players and updaters actually having to deal with / calculate the ratios.

GCool · 03-09-2022, 10:04 AM

03-09-2022, 09:49 AMPatty Wrote: I have to imagine their solution is partly possible due to their update portal. Minimizing players and updaters actually having to deal with / calculate the ratios.

But they aren't added into the sim until a new whole number is hit -- so that could be easily automated in the updating tools, no?

Not really the point, not like we can do that kind of thing, just wanted to ask. I really like this idea. Despite it appearing a little complicated on the surface, it's way better than picking a new game to play.

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 03-09-2022, 10:13 AM

03-09-2022, 09:49 AMPatty Wrote: I have to imagine their solution is partly possible due to their update portal. Minimizing players and updaters actually having to deal with / calculate the ratios.

I know the people in charge have a looooot on their plate in this league, but I have been wondering for a while now why we aren't more interested in pursuing a similar solution to help automate our updating process. Maybe we could even get access to their system and apply it to our own purposes.

***Patty*** · 03-09-2022, 10:18 AM

03-09-2022, 10:04 AMGCool Wrote:
03-09-2022, 09:49 AMPatty Wrote: I have to imagine their solution is partly possible due to their update portal. Minimizing players and updaters actually having to deal with / calculate the ratios.

But they aren't added into the sim until a new whole number is hit -- so that could be easily automated in the updating tools, no?

Not really the point, not like we can do that kind of thing, just wanted to ask. I really like this idea. Despite it appearing a little complicated on the surface, it's way better than picking a new game to play.

You're probably right about the updating side of it. A little complicated feels like an understatement. I saw in the thread VHL has had this idea floating around in some form for like 3 years? Our scale being 1-20, our "meta" being more complicated than max this, don't touch that. Also makes it a not really 1 to 1 thing. It's an idea worth thinking about though.

***Patty*** · 03-09-2022, 10:20 AM

03-09-2022, 10:13 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote:
03-09-2022, 09:49 AMPatty Wrote: I have to imagine their solution is partly possible due to their update portal. Minimizing players and updaters actually having to deal with / calculate the ratios.

I know the people in charge have a looooot on their plate in this league, but I have been wondering for a while now why we aren't more interested in pursuing a similar solution to help automate our updating process. Maybe we could even get access to their system and apply it to our own purposes.

We'd obviously like an update portal, last I remember hearing integrating it with the bank was a compilation. For a while the Index was top priority and past few seasons it's been the Card site taking a lot of those guys time. @DrunkenTeddy would be the guy to ask honestly.

***brickwall35*** · 03-09-2022, 10:29 AM

An interesting spin on the archetype idea. Worth discussing imho

GCool · 03-09-2022, 10:35 AM

03-09-2022, 10:18 AMPatty Wrote:
03-09-2022, 10:04 AMGCool Wrote: But they aren't added into the sim until a new whole number is hit -- so that could be easily automated in the updating tools, no?

Not really the point, not like we can do that kind of thing, just wanted to ask. I really like this idea. Despite it appearing a little complicated on the surface, it's way better than picking a new game to play.
You're probably right about the updating side of it. A little complicated feels like an understatement. I saw in the thread VHL has had this idea floating around in some form for like 3 years? Our scale being 1-20, our "meta" being more complicated than max this, don't touch that. Also makes it a not really 1 to 1 thing. It's an idea worth thinking about though.

I'll concede it might be more than a little complicated. But most of the complications don't really have to ... face new players? That is, I can be recruited freshly into VHL and learn to understand these hybrid attributes and how they affect my player, and I'd receive the same (if not more, honestly) level of enjoyment?

***Tomen*** · 03-09-2022, 10:37 AM

I think the concept of Hybrid attributes is a decent/good one but their version of it is already quite flawed from a first look at it. One only needs to spend 1356 TPE to hit a build with: 93DF&SC while having 69 PA and SK at 57 for the decision making attributes. Having SK and PA as standalone hybrid attributes is a mistake and they should have somehow tied PA more together with DF.

Thank you all for the amazing sigs & player cards
Germany

3. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 5 (Maximilian Wachter, Alexis Metzler) at 16:25
5. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 6 (Steven Stamkos Jr., Brynjar Tusk) at 19:48
8. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 7 (Brynjar Tusk, Alexis Metzler) at 13:55
9. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 8 (Anton Fedorov, Mikelis Grundmanis) at 15:12
10. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 9 (Dickie Pecker) at 19:43 (Empty Net)

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 03-09-2022, 10:40 AM

03-09-2022, 10:37 AMTomen Wrote: I think the concept of Hybrid attributes is a decent/good one but their version of it is already quite flawed from a first look at it. One only needs to spend 1356 TPE to hit a build with: 93DF&SC while having 69 PA and SK at 57 for the decision making attributes. Having SK and PA as standalone hybrid attributes is a mistake and they should have somehow tied PA more together with DF.

Would a build with such low SK work well from your experience? I always thought it was one of those attributes that you can't avoid. Also one thing that needs to be said is that they are a lower TPE league than we are, 1300 TPE is basically where the very elite tops out, like 1-2 people per class maybe, with the majority of players being more in the 600-1000 TPE range.

***Tomen*** · 03-09-2022, 10:44 AM

03-09-2022, 10:40 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote:
03-09-2022, 10:37 AMTomen Wrote: I think the concept of Hybrid attributes is a decent/good one but their version of it is already quite flawed from a first look at it. One only needs to spend 1356 TPE to hit a build with: 93DF&SC while having 69 PA and SK at 57 for the decision making attributes. Having SK and PA as standalone hybrid attributes is a mistake and they should have somehow tied PA more together with DF.

Would a build with such low SK work well from your experience? I always thought it was one of those attributes that you can't avoid. Also one thing that needs to be said is that they are a lower TPE league than we are, 1300 TPE is basically where the very elite tops out, like 1-2 people per class maybe, with the majority of players being more in the 600-1000 TPE range.

Based on what testing I did SK was a decent attribute but more a luxury you put on top. PA was actively making your player worse from an offensive production/win column standpoint. Based on convos I had with former HAM players after the FHM switch it seemed that in their tests SK would also be an attribute that one would actively avoid when going for a hyper TPE efficient build.

TBF this was all on our sim engine version of STHS we used. Maybe the one VHL is using has a different outcome.

Thank you all for the amazing sigs & player cards
Germany

3. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 5 (Maximilian Wachter, Alexis Metzler) at 16:25
5. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 6 (Steven Stamkos Jr., Brynjar Tusk) at 19:48
8. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 7 (Brynjar Tusk, Alexis Metzler) at 13:55
9. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 8 (Anton Fedorov, Mikelis Grundmanis) at 15:12
10. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 9 (Dickie Pecker) at 19:43 (Empty Net)

***Chevy*** · 03-09-2022, 10:48 AM

03-09-2022, 10:40 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote:
03-09-2022, 10:37 AMTomen Wrote: I think the concept of Hybrid attributes is a decent/good one but their version of it is already quite flawed from a first look at it. One only needs to spend 1356 TPE to hit a build with: 93DF&SC while having 69 PA and SK at 57 for the decision making attributes. Having SK and PA as standalone hybrid attributes is a mistake and they should have somehow tied PA more together with DF.

Would a build with such low SK work well from your experience? I always thought it was one of those attributes that you can't avoid. Also one thing that needs to be said is that they are a lower TPE league than we are, 1300 TPE is basically where the very elite tops out, like 1-2 people per class maybe, with the majority of players being more in the 600-1000 TPE range.

SHL tpe cap when?

(I'm kidding. Don't lynch me)

***Rankle*** · 03-09-2022, 10:53 AM

03-09-2022, 10:48 AMGeekusoid Wrote:
03-09-2022, 10:40 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Would a build with such low SK work well from your experience? I always thought it was one of those attributes that you can't avoid. Also one thing that needs to be said is that they are a lower TPE league than we are, 1300 TPE is basically where the very elite tops out, like 1-2 people per class maybe, with the majority of players being more in the 600-1000 TPE range.

SHL tpe cap when?

(I'm kidding. Don't lynch me)

bring back capped and uncapped TPE

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