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Muerto · 04-04-2022, 03:09 AM

straight 500 TPE cap

normalize 600 TPE players in SHL

this is the way

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 04-04-2022, 04:18 AM

04-03-2022, 07:18 PMsköldpaddor Wrote: I don't think you can just remove the j cap completely because "people get bored because they can't apply TPE past 425" factor without also considering the fact that it's just not going to be fun for new users to be out there with 200 TPE players against guys with 700 TPE or whatever, and those users matter too. I'm not against adjusting the cap for the fourth season but I don't think it should be a huge adjustment and I absolutely don't think the cap should be removed completely. I also don't think you should get to uncap further for a fifth season - we already have enough people griping about "teams encouraging J lifers" without offering further incentive for that to happen.

Completely agree with this. New players being able to be somewhat competitive right out of the gate is more important than established ones wanting to spend way past 425 TPE in their later seasons. Also CK himself say in his OP that his suggested change might widen the gap between the good and not so good teams even more and in a J where parity has been on the decline (not as much as in the big leagues, but still), is that really what we want?

That doesn't mean that we can't still have some adjustments though. For example the 350 TPE cap for Sophomores seems quite arbitrary and unnecessary. Whether some of the players they go up against have 350 TPE or 425 TPE isn't that big of a difference for a new member who just signed up, but for the Sophomore players subjected to it it eliminates basically all progress starting as early as their second season not just for the super high earners, but for everyone in the class who is reasonably active. It also means that its impossible for the harder working players to set themselves apart from the ones who don't put in much effort. Plus it just complicates things in general. So why not just get rid of that extra 350 TPE-step and have a flat cap of 425 TPE (or whatever new member you might come up with), for everyone? I don't think that number should be too high though, maybe 500 TPE at most.

One thing we should take into consideration though is WHY we have the cap and whether the reasoning we had for its original implementation still applies. Because as I see it, the junior cap was originally implemented and maintained not just to make things more fun for new members, but also to gently push third and fourth year juniors out of the J. The cap comes from a time where many third or fourth year junior players could have moved up to the big leagues already but they chose to stay down in the J to dominate against weaker competition. Back then the argument essentially was "You can unlock all those TPE you have accumulated instantly, all you have to do is man up and move on to the big leagues already, where a player with your TPE-level should be".

I don't think that reasoning really works anymore today. It comes from a time where players in the 600-800 TPE range where faced with a legitimate decision whether they'd rather player in the SMJHL or SHL, and there was a good case for both. This kind of scenario doesn't exist anymore today, players in that TPE-range are of little use to their SHL-team in most cases so both the teams and the players usually agree that it's better to stay down in the SMJHL for as long as possible. Spending four seasons in the J used to be something that was frowned upon a bit, but nowadays it's the norm because players don't really have much of a choice.

So in that context, half of the original reasoning behind the 425 TPE-cap (giving an incentive for older SMJHL players to move up to the SHL already) doesn't really apply anymore. If you look at it through this lense, the 425 TPE-cap has lost it's encouraging effect and does feel merely like a limitation or punishment at this point. So with that in mind, I think there is some merit to discuss the legitimacy of the TPE-cap system we currently have.

However, the other half of the reasoning behind it is still very strong: Protecting new junior players from having to go up against super high TPE players instantly and providing them with a somewhat level playing field where they can feel valuable and have a feeling of success right out of the gate. That is still the most important reason for why we have the cap and why I wouldn't touch the general principle of a Junior cap, but just adjust it slightly if needed.

spooked · 04-04-2022, 04:27 AM

junior cap is never going anywhere, makes no sense. The real problem is that people shouldn't even be in the SMJHL for more than 2 seasons really... That is an SHL problem that never got fixed. The only way to get more people called up quicker is either to have more slots in the SHL (teams or lines) to fill, so that the bodies are just mandatory OR kill more players with regression to make turnover faster. We already upped the turnover aspect, but it is pretty clear that the SHL could have gone bigger, but then we have engine issues making it so no one really wants to GM that much, which we are also trying to solve.

I think we're already fixing the issues causing the J backlog mostly, only things we could do (again) is expand to have more slots available to call players through to more quickly AND/OR make the TPE scale even more friendly to callups through either low end bump ups OR literally making it so players hit their attribute ceiling at 1600 TPE again or something to build a "cap" for the SHL as well to make the 600 TPE players closer to the 2000 TPE players through sheer in-sim numbers being closer regardless of the actual TPE divide.

The more I think about it, the more I actually think having an in-sim TPE ceiling at 1600-1800 TPE where everything is maxed the more it makes sense to me. It actually pushes the league toward a healthier state where lower earners are relatively more competitive and that will also help rebuilding/regressing teams stay competitive longer, help make teams closer. The only thing missing to avoid literal all 20s from that is some pre-canned stat spreads that would need to be looked at regularly, but its the most direct way to just say "hey, you can only be so much better than the callups, and if you don't earn 100% of the TPE, don't worry you are still going to be competitive for you team"

Henrik · 04-04-2022, 04:45 AM

I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that a player in the 600-800 range is useless in the SHL. I think what you do need is correct application in the line-up and a good build. And a good build is pretty easy to throw together these days since, for better or for worse, its pretty clear what an optimised build looks like in this league atm. At 800 TPE you could throw this build together and still do well, relatively speaking, at the SHL level;

TPE: 800

Player Attributes

Points Available: 7

Offensive Ratings
Screening: 15
Getting Open: 15
Passing: 15
Puckhandling: 15
Shooting Accuracy: 15
Shooting Range: 15
Offensive Read: 15

Defensive Ratings
Checking: 15
Hitting: 15
Positioning: 15
Stickchecking: 15
Shot Blocking: 9
Faceoffs: 15
Defensive Read: 15

Physical Ratings
Acceleration: 15
Agility: 15
Balance: 15
Speed: 15
Stamina: 15
Strength: 15
Fighting: 5

Mental Ratings
Aggression: 5
Bravery: 9
*Determination: 15
*Team Player: 15
*Leadership: 15
*Temperament: 15
*Professionalism: 15

*Indicates attributes that cannot be edited.

15's in everything. And this is so incredibly far from an optimised or personalized build. You could take away points from some of the less important stats and you could have an almost identical build for 600-650 TPE and with the earning we are seeing today its not particularly hard to hit that mark in 3 seasons.

I think its more of a matter of perception of those players being 'bad' or 'harmful' for a teams chance at success but we have seen over and over that top teams can play lower TPE guys and still perform and win cups. Couple this with a slight lack of available roster spots and its going to be hard for GMs to call guys up if it means they have to send a valued member of the team out in order to fit the younger player.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I definitely don't think its messing even more with regression or the TPE scale. This is a J problem that also crosses over into an SHL problem, so the answer should lie somewhere in between.

One thing that I would like to float though is that I think players should be more open about what they want and not accept contracts willy-nilly. We have offer sheets in this league and we barely ever see them, but they are a valid out for a player that wants to come up earlier. If you think you may want to come up after 3 seasons, be clear about that in your contract talks. Don't sign multi-season deals. Give yourself the opportunity to have an out if your current team doesn't want to accommodate you. When you hit RFA status, write some media explaining your situation and I bet that most guys would have suiters come knocking in no time which would either force an offer sheet or would force the team that owns the rights to the player to take action. A lot of this in the end has to come from player agency I think. Giving the users more agency to take control of their players careers is a good thing and if we can empower them to improve their experience I think that's something we should strive for. I would argue that we have tools for this, we just don't use them.

Memento Mori · 04-04-2022, 05:54 AM

I agree with the people saying it's an SHL (as opposed to SMJHL) problem. When I made my SHL debut, I was almost 1000 TPE and unbanked over 500 TPE in the two updates prior to it. I didn't ask to stay down, and even when I was called up my GM at the time had to trade away another player to make room for me on the roster.

Increasing the cap to 600 or 625 would only do so much, there would still be users banking hundreds of TPE for months and it'll make the SMJHL less enjoyable for new players. Retaining your interest in the site when you've been here almost a year shouldn't be an SMJHL responsibility, you should be in the SHL by then. The regression changes were a step in the right direction in the sense that they'll push out the older players/lower earners that are holding roster spots sooner, I'd be curious how many players are called up to the SHL after 3/4/5 seasons following the changes or if more are needed.

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 04-04-2022, 05:58 AM

04-04-2022, 04:45 AMHenrik Wrote: I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that a player in the 600-800 range is useless in the SHL. I think what you do need is correct application in the line-up and a good build. And a good build is pretty easy to throw together these days since, for better or for worse, its pretty clear what an optimised build looks like in this league atm. At 800 TPE you could throw this build together and still do well, relatively speaking, at the SHL level;

TPE: 800

Player Attributes

Points Available: 7

Offensive Ratings
Screening: 15
Getting Open: 15
Passing: 15
Puckhandling: 15
Shooting Accuracy: 15
Shooting Range: 15
Offensive Read: 15

Defensive Ratings
Checking: 15
Hitting: 15
Positioning: 15
Stickchecking: 15
Shot Blocking: 9
Faceoffs: 15
Defensive Read: 15

Physical Ratings
Acceleration: 15
Agility: 15
Balance: 15
Speed: 15
Stamina: 15
Strength: 15
Fighting: 5

Mental Ratings
Aggression: 5
Bravery: 9
*Determination: 15
*Team Player: 15
*Leadership: 15
*Temperament: 15
*Professionalism: 15

*Indicates attributes that cannot be edited.

15's in everything. And this is so incredibly far from an optimised or personalized build. You could take away points from some of the less important stats and you could have an almost identical build for 600-650 TPE and with the earning we are seeing today its not particularly hard to hit that mark in 3 seasons.

I think its more of a matter of perception of those players being 'bad' or 'harmful' for a teams chance at success but we have seen over and over that top teams can play lower TPE guys and still perform and win cups. Couple this with a slight lack of available roster spots and its going to be hard for GMs to call guys up if it means they have to send a valued member of the team out in order to fit the younger player.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I definitely don't think its messing even more with regression or the TPE scale. But this is a J problem that also crosses over into an SHL problem.

One thing that I would like to float though is that I think players should be more open about what they want and not accept contracts willy-nilly. We have offer sheets in this league and we barely ever see them, but they are a valid out for a player that wants to come up earlier. If you think you may want to come up after 3 seasons, be clear about that in your contract talks. Don't sign multi-season deals. Give yourself the opportunity to have an out if your current team doesn't want to accommodate you. When you hit RFA status, write some media explaining your situation and I bet that most guys would have suiters come knocking in no time which for either force an offer sheet or the team that owns the rights to the player to take action. A lot of this in the end has to come from player agency I think. Giving the users more agency to take control of their players careers is a good thing and if we can empower them to improve their experience I think that's something we should strive for. I would argue that we have tools for this, we just don't use them.

You are absolutely right but I also think the problem of players staying down too long is a bit more complex and tougher to solve. It usually isn't a case of a GM strong-arming his player and forcing him to stay down against their will but a combination of factors, the strongest being that a lot of players, especially first-gens, feel a genuine connection to their Junior team which is often actually stronger than the one to the SHL-team that holds their rights. So they genuinely want to spend as much time with their J team as possible, since a lot of them barely feel connected to the team that drafted them until they actual start to suit up for it. Maybe this is one avenue where we could make some nice non-intrusive changes, like a training camp and pre-season system that is closer to real life, where prospects actually get to play in their SHL teams preseason games. Actually getting a taste of what it feels like being part of an SHL team in the sim will make people a bit more interested in their SHL team in general and more eager to move up as quickly as possible.

Also I think another big factor, which is connected to the first one somewhat, is junior players being guilt-tripped into staying down in the J as long as possible. It's usually not aggressive and often implicit and maybe even unintentional, but I think we do tend to send the message to those junior players that do want to move on to the SHL quickly, that they are letting their J team down. In an ecosystem where spending 3-4 seasons with your J team is the norm, not doing that automatically puts your team at an disadvantage and since most junior players like their teams, they don't want to do that to them. Again I don't think GMs are actively telling people that or put pressure on them on a large scale, but I think that's just what a lot of SMJHL players feel and think in the back of their heads: "My team spend a 1st Rounder in the SMJHL Draft on me, if I move up now after my second season then I'm really fucking them over."

I'm not really sure how to solve that but I guess it is connected to the fact that there has been a certain shift in the SMJHL where winning is emphasized a bit more over developing players than it used to be. Maybe the switch to FHM played a role there as well because it introduced a clearer distinction between teams that have a shot and those who don't, but I don't think it's a particularly new development, it has been like that for a long time. An SMJHL team that drafts a player and then develops him so well that he already is ready for SHL action after just two seasons should be proud of what they achieved and not sad or mad about losing them, but that's always easy to say from the outside. It's much more frustrating when you are a GM in a league where your windows for competing have become so small, and losing one or even multiple of your core pieces in that window can be heartbreaking, especially when all you did wrong was doing "too well" when scouting and developing your talent.

***RAmenAmen*** · 04-04-2022, 10:13 AM

If one of the big problems with making the jump from the J to the SHL is feeling unable to compete with 600-800 TPE, why not force SHL teams to run 4 lines? Every SHL team whose tactics I've looked at only dresses 15 skaters, and adding 3 forwards to each team (with a minimum ice time requirement like the J has) might not be a massive improvement, but it provides a landing spot for the high earners to feel useful without taking a roster spot from a higher TPE player (or forcing a GM to sacrifice a more competitive lineup with a high TPE IA just to call someone up "early").

***Chevy*** · 04-04-2022, 10:15 AM

04-04-2022, 10:13 AMRAmenAmen Wrote: If one of the big problems with making the jump from the J to the SHL is feeling unable to compete with 600-800 TPE, why not force SHL teams to run 4 lines? Every SHL team whose tactics I've looked at only dresses 15 skaters, and adding 3 forwards to each team (with a minimum ice time requirement like the J has) might not be a massive improvement, but it provides a landing spot for the high earners to feel useful without taking a roster spot from a higher TPE player (or forcing a GM to sacrifice a more competitive lineup with a high TPE IA just to call someone up "early").

People like myself, and @FuzzSHL have been shouting this for a while now. At this point I'm willing to mark it on the board as a never going to happen.

Henrik · 04-04-2022, 10:18 AM

04-04-2022, 10:13 AMRAmenAmen Wrote: If one of the big problems with making the jump from the J to the SHL is feeling unable to compete with 600-800 TPE, why not force SHL teams to run 4 lines? Every SHL team whose tactics I've looked at only dresses 15 skaters, and adding 3 forwards to each team (with a minimum ice time requirement like the J has) might not be a massive improvement, but it provides a landing spot for the high earners to feel useful without taking a roster spot from a higher TPE player (or forcing a GM to sacrifice a more competitive lineup with a high TPE IA just to call someone up "early").

We've had 4th lines before, and as I understand it it made for a pretty bad player experience for those players. I'm sure someone who has been around for longer could give you a more in-depth answer as to why the league has strayed away from this multiple times in the recent past. It would also mean we would have to rework the budget which may bring on some unforeseen problems.

***FuzzSHL*** · 04-04-2022, 11:21 AM

04-04-2022, 10:18 AMHenrik Wrote:
04-04-2022, 10:13 AMRAmenAmen Wrote: If one of the big problems with making the jump from the J to the SHL is feeling unable to compete with 600-800 TPE, why not force SHL teams to run 4 lines? Every SHL team whose tactics I've looked at only dresses 15 skaters, and adding 3 forwards to each team (with a minimum ice time requirement like the J has) might not be a massive improvement, but it provides a landing spot for the high earners to feel useful without taking a roster spot from a higher TPE player (or forcing a GM to sacrifice a more competitive lineup with a high TPE IA just to call someone up "early").

We've had 4th lines before, and as I understand it it made for a pretty bad player experience for those players. I'm sure someone who has been around for longer could give you a more in-depth answer as to why the league has strayed away from this multiple times in the recent past. It would also mean we would have to rework the budget which may bring on some unforeseen problems.

The SHL has not had 4 lines since I've been on the site, which was Dec 2018. The main complaints are, as you said, "bad player experience," and people "not wanting to play 4th line minutes."

I've brought up possible solutions multiple times to different variations of Head Office, and every time it has been shot down, regardless of how I've tried to tackle these different concerns and complaints. The simple fact is, there are people on the site who just flat out refuse to run 4 lines no matter what.

As it stands right now though, 4 lines wouldn't work because of where activity levels are in the J. It would have worked before the J expanded because it would have actually forced callups to happen, which would have opened the door for newer creates to have roster spots. However, with where the J is now, if we added 4 lines, the J would become a fair bit more inactive, which is not what we want to see with the J player experience, which hs been (for quite some time) a much better player experience for multiple reasons.

IF the SHL ever had 4 lines and we actually saw more callups because of that, only then would we consider removing or raising the juniors TPE cap. Right now, Newfoundland is already a freight train running over everyone. How much worse do you think that gets if they had players at 566, 578, 577, 868, 739, 895, 799, 652, and 727 instead of 425? You want to talk about a bad player experience? That would be a bad player experience.

Aleksi Kettu

***FuzzSHL*** · 04-04-2022, 11:34 AM

04-04-2022, 05:58 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote:
04-04-2022, 04:45 AMHenrik Wrote: I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that a player in the 600-800 range is useless in the SHL. I think what you do need is correct application in the line-up and a good build. And a good build is pretty easy to throw together these days since, for better or for worse, its pretty clear what an optimised build looks like in this league atm. At 800 TPE you could throw this build together and still do well, relatively speaking, at the SHL level;

~~~

15's in everything. And this is so incredibly far from an optimised or personalized build. You could take away points from some of the less important stats and you could have an almost identical build for 600-650 TPE and with the earning we are seeing today its not particularly hard to hit that mark in 3 seasons.

I think its more of a matter of perception of those players being 'bad' or 'harmful' for a teams chance at success but we have seen over and over that top teams can play lower TPE guys and still perform and win cups. Couple this with a slight lack of available roster spots and its going to be hard for GMs to call guys up if it means they have to send a valued member of the team out in order to fit the younger player.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I definitely don't think its messing even more with regression or the TPE scale. But this is a J problem that also crosses over into an SHL problem.

One thing that I would like to float though is that I think players should be more open about what they want and not accept contracts willy-nilly. We have offer sheets in this league and we barely ever see them, but they are a valid out for a player that wants to come up earlier. If you think you may want to come up after 3 seasons, be clear about that in your contract talks. Don't sign multi-season deals. Give yourself the opportunity to have an out if your current team doesn't want to accommodate you. When you hit RFA status, write some media explaining your situation and I bet that most guys would have suiters come knocking in no time which for either force an offer sheet or the team that owns the rights to the player to take action. A lot of this in the end has to come from player agency I think. Giving the users more agency to take control of their players careers is a good thing and if we can empower them to improve their experience I think that's something we should strive for. I would argue that we have tools for this, we just don't use them.

You are absolutely right but I also think the problem of players staying down too long is a bit more complex and tougher to solve. It usually isn't a case of a GM strong-arming his player and forcing him to stay down against their will but a combination of factors, the strongest being that a lot of players, especially first-gens, feel a genuine connection to their Junior team which is often actually stronger than the one to the SHL-team that holds their rights. So they genuinely want to spend as much time with their J team as possible, since a lot of them barely feel connected to the team that drafted them until they actual start to suit up for it. Maybe this is one avenue where we could make some nice non-intrusive changes, like a training camp and pre-season system that is closer to real life, where prospects actually get to play in their SHL teams preseason games. Actually getting a taste of what it feels like being part of an SHL team in the sim will make people a bit more interested in their SHL team in general and more eager to move up as quickly as possible.

Also I think another big factor, which is connected to the first one somewhat, is junior players being guilt-tripped into staying down in the J as long as possible. It's usually not aggressive and often implicit and maybe even unintentional, but I think we do tend to send the message to those junior players that do want to move on to the SHL quickly, that they are letting their J team down. In an ecosystem where spending 3-4 seasons with your J team is the norm, not doing that automatically puts your team at an disadvantage and since most junior players like their teams, they don't want to do that to them. Again I don't think GMs are actively telling people that or put pressure on them on a large scale, but I think that's just what a lot of SMJHL players feel and think in the back of their heads: "My team spend a 1st Rounder in the SMJHL Draft on me, if I move up now after my second season then I'm really fucking them over."

I'm not really sure how to solve that but I guess it is connected to the fact that there has been a certain shift in the SMJHL where winning is emphasized a bit more over developing players than it used to be. Maybe the switch to FHM played a role there as well because it introduced a clearer distinction between teams that have a shot and those who don't, but I don't think it's a particularly new development, it has been like that for a long time. An SMJHL team that drafts a player and then develops him so well that he already is ready for SHL action after just two seasons should be proud of what they achieved and not sad or mad about losing them, but that's always easy to say from the outside. It's much more frustrating when you are a GM in a league where your windows for competing have become so small, and losing one or even multiple of your core pieces in that window can be heartbreaking, especially when all you did wrong was doing "too well" when scouting and developing your talent.

Don't look now, but Baltimore (most points in the SHL) has a player at 535 TPE, and Texas (top points percentage) has one at 763.

Players "staying down too long" is certainly a combination of different factors, however the most prominent reason is that a player enjoys their time in the J with the team and group there. I do believe that most of the time its because thats where their player is, so thats where they focus their attention. However, it is also possible that some SHL environments aren't as welcoming or exciting as their J locker room environment is, but I'm only guessing at that.

Even when SHL teams ask to have their prospects in the file, rarely do they actually get added. I've tried doing it a number of times and I think only once did I get my prospects get added to the file, and thats because I went to a simmer directly after the first file was released. I'd love to have more prospects playing in the preseason, but right now it doesn't seem like file workers are adding them. I could be wrong, I haven't asked in a few seasons, but that is my guess currently.

Hard agree with your "guilt trip" comments, ReD.

I do have to disagree about winning being emphasized over development. Sure, some teams have gone a bit too "all in" trying to win a Cup, but most of the league is very hesitant to trade outside of the draft because they don't want to give up the users that they drafted. Most J GMs put far more emphasis on the LR environment that they have and helping out the people/users as much as they can over winning. Even with Newfoundland, their focus wasn't and isn't on winning. Their winning is a byproduct of their focus on their culture, locker room environment, and helping out first gens as much as humanly possible. Their focus on development is the key reason they are winning the way that they are. I do think you'll see a team here and there go a bit too "all in" in pursuit of winning, but 9 times out of 10 you aren't going to see that in the J.

Aleksi Kettu

caltroit_red_flames · 04-04-2022, 11:38 AM

04-03-2022, 06:43 PMACapitalChicago Wrote:

We're already looking at it

Now that's some quality customer service

***FuzzSHL*** · 04-04-2022, 11:41 AM

04-04-2022, 05:54 AMMemento Mori Wrote: I agree with the people saying it's an SHL (as opposed to SMJHL) problem. When I made my SHL debut, I was almost 1000 TPE and unbanked over 500 TPE in the two updates prior to it. I didn't ask to stay down, and even when I was called up my GM at the time had to trade away another player to make room for me on the roster.

Increasing the cap to 600 or 625 would only do so much, there would still be users banking hundreds of TPE for months and it'll make the SMJHL less enjoyable for new players. Retaining your interest in the site when you've been here almost a year shouldn't be an SMJHL responsibility, you should be in the SHL by then. The regression changes were a step in the right direction in the sense that they'll push out the older players/lower earners that are holding roster spots sooner, I'd be curious how many players are called up to the SHL after 3/4/5 seasons following the changes or if more are needed.

I think we'll have to wait a few more seasons to really see the effects of the new regression scale and the potential number of callups. At this point we unfortunately just have to wait to see how all of that works out, but I do actually think that callups won't actually increase. Rebuilding teams will sell off their high end pieces and call up any number of the 12 prospects they have, high end teams will be buying the high TPE players that are available or signing low TPE IFAs to fill roster space since they can win with them anyways (see Baltimore. Yes, I know JR isn't an IFA, but he's on a new player, so the one on BAP might as well be an IFA). It'll be exactly how it is now, I think.

Aleksi Kettu

***FuzzSHL*** · 04-04-2022, 11:42 AM

04-04-2022, 03:09 AMMuerto Wrote: straight 500 TPE cap

normalize 600 TPE players in SHL

this is the way

"bad player experience"

"No one wants to get run over"

Aleksi Kettu

***honkerrs*** · 04-04-2022, 11:55 AM

please add 4th lines so then we can hear complaints from same people about too many IAs in the J

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