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***fancey13*** · 02-22-2025, 10:51 PM

Thank you all for actually taking the time to do my survey! Since it did gather some interest from a bunch of users around the league, I wanted to do a follow-up media to go over some of the results, some of the responses, what the people want. For this media I unfortunately couldn’t include absolutely everybody’s responses so I’ve chosen a quite a few that I felt were either really interesting, pertained to the topic well, or were just great overall responses. I reached out to each individual user who’s response I’m sharing with you all for permission to use their quotes, but, I’ve chosen to keep the answers anonymous to avoid any conflicts. To be honest, I’m more comfortable sharing the responses I got when nobody knows who said it. I don’t want anybody getting attacked over how they feel about what, I think, is a genuine problem.

Some More Data

Since the first media post opened a few eyes to just how few users share the current available job pool, I spent way too much time compiling that data further into this graph. This graph shows how the current pool of 426 jobs are distributed throughout the league. Again, this information is just something that I want to bring to people’s attention, with absolutely no intentions of singling out any specific users. In this case, everybody is just a number to me and that is how I look at this situation as a whole.

I think this breakdown really puts into perspective how many jobs get ate up when users hold multiple. When there are only a set amount of jobs, it is important for the wealth to get shared. The number of users who only hold one job here is actually really impressive. Something I didn’t consider in my first media post. Nearly 150 users having just one job is a TON. However, the other side of the coin is that 277 jobs are held by a combined 83 users. Averaging 3.33 jobs per user of those who hold more than one job. I will also note that there are some instances in this compilation where there are some insanely dedicated and great veteran users, who hold several jobs that are very intense and not just for an average user. I applaud you all for your hard work to keep this league running the way it does and we honestly would not be this far along without you.

Polling Results

Anyone who actually did my survey would know that it started with a super duper short poll that led into some follow-up questions. I intentionally tried to keep this as short as possible while giving only yes and no options to avoid any discrepancies or any answers that may have been too vague to include. The first question on this poll was super simple, as seen here, with answers to be pretty much as I expected.

We can literally ALL agree that jobs enhance user activity. This, in my opinion, is a really positive takeaway. Seeing how some other results were skewed a little more, being able to come back to this and see that we all know that jobs have such a positive outlook on users in the community as a whole is really nice. It gives us all a mutual agreeance and something we can all look at together.

The other question I asked was a little more controversial and split, which I’m glad about. This sets up this media post to talk about arguments for and against the question, really expand and dive deep into how users genuinely feel about the topic.

With a slight lean to agreeance, we can see that there are users here that see an issue with this. I think this result definitely shows that maybe we should be looking more into this as a league somewhere down the line. Deciding how that is to be done however becomes a little tricky to say the least and it’s hard for me to put out a singular solution to it. I do feel like some of the other things I talked about in my first media and things to come in this one cover some solutions, but ultimately these things need to be discussed as a group. Maybe another idea for a team based job?? “Employment Committee” has a nice ring to it. A group that oversees hiring, responsible for not only selecting the absolute right people for the job but develops new users to build proper applications so that the next job doesn’t get away and they can start getting invested in a community, while simultaneously creatively discussing new jobs and if there is a need for them. I would personally be one of the first to apply!

Follow-up Questionnaire

Following these polls, I asked a question directly based on the answers I was given for the 2nd poll. If users answered yes, I asked “Why does veteran users holding jobs create issues”, and if they answered no, I asked “Why is it okay for veteran users to hold these jobs”. I’m going to give you guys a big pat on the back here because some of the answers I had for these were amazing. I would like to go over some of the answers on both sides and inject some initial thoughts that I had to each one.

Why does veteran users holding jobs create issues?

“I believe it often does because there are plenty of entry level jobs, or lower entry jobs that can be held by veteran users. There are multiple reasons why veteran users may hold multiple jobs, from wanting to max earn, to wanting to be more involved at a base level, or sometimes feeling the need to wear multiple hats. As someone who holds a single entry-level job, but already writes way too much outside of the SHL to regularly participate in media, I felt I needed to hold onto it for several seasons to achieve my goal of max earning. Only now that I hold *redacted for anon* do I think I'm able to comfortably step back from the spot for any newer users that may be more interested in joining the *redacted*.”

I think this user makes some great points here. Namely that some users hold onto these jobs while pursuing other jobs to reach player development goals. We all want our own players to turn out the way we want them to and when you finally get a job, you know that a set amount of money is secured in your bank the following season. This makes a lot of sense, considering it isn’t any one user’s place to make sure the community is thriving. They are simply doing their part by having the job and engaging in that said community. This is sort of what I had in mind to draw attention to in my original media post, and thought that maybe some users might read it and think that “maybe I should share the wealth, these are some eye opening statistics”. Another user actively understanding this shows that at the very least I’m causing someone to think and at the end of the day, that’s all I can ask for.

“I am excited to be in the league. I have applied for jobs and it seems like I don't even get an interview just a heads up they went with another person.”

This is an example of a more alarming response I’ve gotten. It directly shows multiple problems at hand in my opinion. It seems like we have a new user here, who is genuinely excited to get started. They have applied for jobs to try to engage in the community, and not only have they not gotten their foot in the door, they haven’t even been presented with an application process properly. This to me, is just not good enough. I understand, people can get busy. Maybe they were short for time, chose a user they already knew were fit for the job and moved on. At the very least, I expect those who post a job ad or are a part of a hiring process to actively help a new user in doing that. This kind of thing would absolutely kill the community for me and the bottom line is, that’s just simply not good enough and this user should have had a better experience whether they got the job or not.

“New users can't ever compete with vets in experience, and they're the ones who need the money the most. Name recognition and reputation play a huge part in who gets hired, and while it makes sense for certain jobs, seeing familiar names get pretty entry-level jobs over new creates is kind of a let down.”

To this point, while I largely agree, I personally feel like it’s more of a let-down that these users have already been well established in multiple communities and discord servers (that’s what makes them well known). I see how it can be tempting for those hiring to see a name come across that maybe they didn’t expect to see, or someone that you know works real hard in the jobs that they already have. My point being, give the new guys a try. If it doesn’t work out, that’s why it’s an entry level job, right? We can afford tons of mistakes as we have lots of site veterans in more exclusive and lucrative higher up positions to fix it.

Why is it okay for veteran users to hold these jobs?

“I genuinely don't think its a hoarding issue, more of a need being filled by people perhaps less afraid to tackle certain jobs. Veterans have seen the league in depth, understand it better, and perhaps find jobs less daunting than your typical first gen would. If anything, it might be a marketing issue more than it is making space for first gens.”

I like this response even though I slightly disagree. The only thing that makes me disagree with this is that we commonly see veteran users in jobs designed for newer users. To be more clear about it, I think it’s fine for a veteran to be, for example, an SHL GM and J commissioner, and in their spare time when they aren’t doing all that they’re also the head banker. Those types of jobs we don’t want to be handed out to the first guy that slaps an application on the desk. The mark I’m trying to hit is cracking down on users with 3,4,5 jobs that are all super entry level and only have that many jobs because they’re designed to be easy. If a user is capable of balancing the workload of those jobs simultaneously, they’re capable of filling a needed role in a higher up position.

“Ive seen job applications for a lot of jobs and they're generally very few and far between and very low effort for the position. When trying to keep a site running you want somebody who can. The effort to apply for the job will translate into doing the job so often it gets stuck with sticking what you know.”

Super understandable in these circumstances. Again, I would never be looking down at hiring a well known veteran for a position that requires a ton of responsibility and trust. That’s definitely the right call in that specific circumstance. I also understand that not every application that comes across is one that is perfectly written, that shows tons of promise, and is just a perfect application. In those cases, I feel like maybe we should be doing better as a whole to explain that and demonstrate a better way to write an application. Maybe that’s in the job ad itself, maybe that’s in rookie mentorship, maybe if there was enough interest we create a job for it and assign a veteran to help show interested new gens tips and tricks to apply for jobs. Those kinds of more ‘dynamic’ responses to the situation would be what I’m trying to push for instead of settling for someone who we already know. Grow the community, not copy it basically.

“In my experience, veteran users that have a lot of different jobs are reliable and consistently putting in effort. I think the all-star committees and awards committees should have limited terms and make members reapply after a season or two. With the exception being that the head of the committees have unlimited terms in order to keep the committees consistent. Speaking from experience, sometimes members of the committees (both veteran and first gens) will join and either burn out or consistently not respond to votes/surveys/discussions or miss deadlines. With the majority of the committees being veteran users and some members not voting, this causes the members that are consistent and reliable to be relied on more. At the moment there are no term limits, I think making members reapply to the committees would hopefully bring in users that are trying to engage with the site and committees consistently. This would also hopefully provide users who aren't invested in the job or had other commitments come up with a way to exit the committee themselves and promote activity.”

This is such a great response. It starts by showcasing how veteran power users can be an asset that we can use, and is followed by a solution to create jobs for newer users that actively want to get involved. In this specific case, I completely understand the reasoning behind keeping those users in the position, while we also make a case to say that there are other things we can be doing to provide for the users that are trying to advance in the community. By creating a limited term for these types of jobs, we almost ensure that at least a few new users get in every season, AND those that are carrying all the workload trying to keep it going, no longer have to. Some other initial thoughts that I have is that I personally think it’s easy for veteran users to carry a bias into voting in this type of committee. Getting fresh voters every season or two would go a long way to keep biased votes to a minimum. Not to mention, this would also create a sense of ‘graduation’ and now that users have experience they can continue to move up and into more advanced employment and hopefully create a positive trend of growing the community.

New Jobs?

Following these questions, I asked for everybody the same final question. “What is a job you think could be relevant and added to the league?”. I didn’t want to make this post without some further suggestions on top of my own thoughts, and I really think there were some real creative answers in here that could be taken further than just an idea. This was what users had to say

“Code of conduct committee”

I love it! Have some dedicated users on a team to pick the forums and decide proper punishments. Take some more responsibilities away from again, an already busy HO. I think this would be a position I’d like to see those veteran users in as they would be people that we can trust to do such an important job, but in hopes that gives them a path to leave some of the jobs that may be more eligible for a new user to the site.

“Media coach for new users, help brainstorm media or graphics ideas with rookies to help them build their bank accounts”

Such a creative thought. Similarly to the last, this is another job tailored to veteran users that know their way around the site and have already been through the initial media grind. Again, my hope for implementing this would be that we grab some great users from other positions to fill this and this joins veterans and new users in a way that forms a sense of community between users that have been around forever as a coaching/teacher role and new users getting involved in a more advanced way.

“One like you said was chirping related. First thing I took note of when joining up was that low effort chirps aren’t graded. I’ve seen TONS that are just ‘chirp’ ‘tweet’ or other one/two word answers. It’s a lot to go through every week for just the handful in charge. Could create a decent bit of work experience for new people, getting them involved.”

I do really love the idea of creating a separate team for this. Scanning the chirper thread each week is such a daunting task as it is 100% the most active thread on site, needing several pages of chirps looked over every week by the same team that is already responsible for so much has to be brutal. Keeping on top of everything may just become too much for HO to handle with such a small team, while continuing to deal with everything else that goes on in the league. I think relieving some of that pressure could be great for HO to keep focus in other areas, while providing a super entry level job to new users. In my opinion this would be as about as entry level as it gets, since if a couple are missed every week we only sacrifice a couple users getting 100-200k extra cash. Very little consequences for a mistake.

My Own Job Idea

I did mention this earlier in the media but I wanted to give a full rundown on the idea since I’ve really put a lot of effort into this. Based off both of my media, I think that the absolute best idea to deal with this would be to implement an Employment Committee. This committee would essentially take over the job hiring process, leaving bias and user familiarity behind. It would place appropriate users in jobs that suit their abilities and what they can and should be doing accordingly. This committee would bring an unbiased group discussion to the table, and would be responsible for growing the community in ways that I am trying to advocate in my media posts. This committee also helps develop new users into users that actively participate in the community. Instead of users blindly applying for jobs, this committee also would provide clarity to users who may not fully understand the application process, what a job entails, and other requirements. As others have also mentioned, there have been times that applications that users submit have been underwhelming, that can be very discouraging when users apply over and over to only get a response of “we hired someone else, thanks for your time”. Not that there is currently a requirement for any user to explain any details, these new users (if given proper advice) could still develop into someone who excels at their job even though the application they submitted wasn’t great. This committee, to me, serves as such a great asset to growing our community in all these ways and since, in my ideology, that the committee would also be responsible for creating and discussing future other new job ideas, allows for a fun and creative environment in a discord as well. I’d love to put some more thought into this with anyone else who may be interested in discussing it, especially if any HO members like my idea, I’d love to be a part of helping you guys figure out ways to implement it.

As always, I really appreciate you all for reading my media and my discord DMs are always open if anyone ever wants to talk about things.

Keep your stick on the ice

3293 words

**bbjygm** · 02-22-2025, 11:35 PM

May I ask what jobs specifically you classify as entry-level?

***fancey13*** · 02-22-2025, 11:44 PM

02-22-2025, 11:35 PMbbjygm Wrote: May I ask what jobs specifically you classify as entry-level?

I think @sve7en listed them perfectly, so i'll just copy that list to here

PT Grader (14)
SHL All-Star (10)
SHL Awards (10)
SHL Historian (4)
SHL Budget Assistant (4)
SMJHL Intern (2) *1 season term, no repeat
SMJHL Grading (3) *Deep Dives
SMJHL Awards (9)
SMJHL Historian (3)
SMJHL Budget Assistant (4)
IIHF Historian (5)
WJC GM (12-24) *1 season term
Ice Level Card Creator (unlimited, atm)
Media Grading (14)
Podcast Grading (6)
Graphics Grading (8)
Graphics Grading Intern (1)
Fantasy Manager (28)

***sköldpaddor*** · 02-23-2025, 01:03 AM

02-22-2025, 11:44 PMfancey13 Wrote: I think @sve7en listed them perfectly, so i'll just copy that list to here

PT Grader (14)
SHL All-Star (10)
SHL Awards (10)
SHL Historian (4)
SHL Budget Assistant (4)
SMJHL Intern (2) *1 season term, no repeat
SMJHL Grading (3) *Deep Dives
SMJHL Awards (9)
SMJHL Historian (3)
SMJHL Budget Assistant (4)
IIHF Historian (5)
WJC GM (12-24) *1 season term
Ice Level Card Creator (unlimited, atm)
Media Grading (14)
Podcast Grading (6)
Graphics Grading (8)
Graphics Grading Intern (1)
Fantasy Manager (28)

I think giving an awards job to a new user is a great way to make them peace the heck out of this entire show, that’s one of the most thankless jobs on this whole site lol.

***fancey13*** · 02-23-2025, 01:40 AM

02-23-2025, 01:03 AMsköldpaddor Wrote: I think giving an awards job to a new user is a great way to make them peace the heck out of this entire show, that’s one of the most thankless jobs on this whole site lol.

In what way? The details of the job seems very simple at face value. Do you mean from outside pressure, the people on the committee itself, or just in general? The head of the committee wrote that it's an entry level job, and seems simple from the outside looking in, that's my entire basis here

***sköldpaddor*** · 02-23-2025, 01:44 AM

02-23-2025, 01:40 AMfancey13 Wrote: In what way? The details of the job seems very simple at face value. Do you mean from outside pressure, the people on the committee itself, or just in general? The head of the committee wrote that it's an entry level job, and seems simple from the outside looking in, that's my entire basis here

It has historically just been a job that gets a ton of pushback - no matter who is nominated or wins, there’s an immense amount of criticism directed towards the committee. The work itself isn’t hard (though I would like to stress that it’s important to have some knowledge of the engine we use - just knowing real hockey stats doesn’t always cut it) but the community interactions in those roles can be pretty brutal sometimes and that’s not necessarily something that I’d want to throw somebody into as soon as they get here.

Both committees are in a much better place lately but that’s a recent development - for a long time that was one of the harder roles to generate apps for.

*MikeLiut* · 02-23-2025, 09:49 AM

Great article! The Employment Committee is an idea worth discussing, but I would disagree with its implementation. You want specific people in specific roles, and the department head is usually the best person to determine their priorities. The first job of a department head is to manage their team, and it is only fair to let them do so.

However, as department heads, we do have a responsibility to include - or even prioritize - people with no money and no income source. Sev7en's list is an interesting one. One important detail the article did not mention is that new-generation players are often hired for these jobs, and they tend to stay (which is a great thing!). This can create the perception that veteran players are prioritized for these roles, but that is not always the case.

***sköldpaddor*** · 02-23-2025, 10:08 AM

02-23-2025, 09:49 AMMikeLiut Wrote: Great article! The Employment Committee is an idea worth discussing, but I would disagree with its implementation. You want specific people in specific roles, and the department head is usually the best person to determine their priorities. The first job of a department head is to manage their team, and it is only fair to let them do so.

However, as department heads, we do have a responsibility to include - or even prioritize - people with no money and no income source. Sev7en's list is an interesting one. One important detail the article did not mention is that new-generation players are often hired for these jobs, and they tend to stay (which is a great thing!). This can create the perception that veteran players are prioritized for these roles, but that is not always the case.

This is another great point - that often, a first gen is hired and then they just stay in that role until they aren't even perceived as "new users" anymore. When you have someone who's good at a job, it seems kind of counterproductive to say "I need you to leave please because I'd like to give your job to someone newer." It's always a balance between making sure your department runs smoothly and giving those opportunities out when you're able to.

I'd absolutely agree that one person hoarding a ton of jobs that are easily-accessible to first gens isn't ideal, but I also would love to see some data on which of those "easy" jobs are actually being hoarded. I am somebody with a lot of jobs, but I wouldn't say most of them are great fits for new people. The only two that appear on that list are the awards committees. When I applied for SHL awards committee, I believe I was the only applicant. I straight up told the awards head at the time "don't hire me if there's other options" and I do not think there were. I also think that, given our hall of fame criteria and how awards play into people's HOF consideration, having an SHL awards committee that's mostly fresh and lacking context and sim knowledge would be a recipe for rage and disappointment. Love the idea of introducing new people one at a time, but hard disagree on that being a position that should be widely considered "entry level."

Anyway, I digress. Again, I'd like to know who the veteran "power users" are who are supposedly hoarding these jobs - I am somebody I'm sure is perceived to have a lot of jobs, but outside the above, it's head offices and an IIHF fed head job (and running the merch store which i don't want to do but can't hand off to just anybody because it has our financial information and also no one wants to do it lmao). The majority of people I know with a bazillion jobs are first gens who haven't burned out yet and are still trying their hand at literally everything to figure out what they like.

P.S. This is not all directed at you, Mike, just piggybacking off agreeing with you on the initial point Smile

***jaypc8237*** · 02-23-2025, 12:05 PM

02-22-2025, 11:44 PMfancey13 Wrote: I think @sve7en listed them perfectly, so i'll just copy that list to here

PT Grader (14)
SHL All-Star (10)
SHL Awards (10)
SHL Historian (4)
SHL Budget Assistant (4)
SMJHL Intern (2) *1 season term, no repeat
SMJHL Grading (3) *Deep Dives
SMJHL Awards (9)
SMJHL Historian (3)
SMJHL Budget Assistant (4)
IIHF Historian (5)
WJC GM (12-24) *1 season term
Ice Level Card Creator (unlimited, atm)
Media Grading (14)
Podcast Grading (6)
Graphics Grading (8)
Graphics Grading Intern (1)
Fantasy Manager (28)

Some of these made me laugh. Tons of these are either some of the hardest, and some of the most thankless jobs lmao. Specifically Historian. Its a hard job lmao

Amazing write up and good use of stats!

*kahri* · 02-23-2025, 12:08 PM

To go off what is said above, like I am a first gen myself who has multiple jobs. And like Mike said, many of the jobs are being held as first gen’s who just stuck either it. Almost every single job I have, I applied and have been there since I joined the league. So technically would I fall into the category as being a veteran with multiple jobs? Or a new user who just found their place with jobs they love and just haven’t left them in the year and half i’ve been in the league.

The only job I would have applied for most recent would be WJC HO. I truly only applied because I care about WJC but no one applies even when you sit there and beg them to so this kinda goes into my next point…

It may be in the media post but I also lack reading comprehension but I would be curious to see the first gen’s that responded vs the jobs they have applied for. Have they applied for jobs? What jobs were they? etc etc.

***WannabeFinn*** · 02-23-2025, 12:09 PM

The SHL doesn’t become what it is today without tenured job holders providing crucial institutional knowledge. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for fresh meat, but sometimes you’ve got to lean on veteran power users to keep this place pushing to be the best it can be.

***fancey13*** · 02-23-2025, 02:24 PM

02-23-2025, 09:49 AMMikeLiut Wrote: Great article! The Employment Committee is an idea worth discussing, but I would disagree with its implementation. You want specific people in specific roles, and the department head is usually the best person to determine their priorities. The first job of a department head is to manage their team, and it is only fair to let them do so.

However, as department heads, we do have a responsibility to include - or even prioritize - people with no money and no income source. Sev7en's list is an interesting one. One important detail the article did not mention is that new-generation players are often hired for these jobs, and they tend to stay (which is a great thing!). This can create the perception that veteran players are prioritized for these roles, but that is not always the case.

I guess that would be something that could be communicated as well. Proper communication is key in almost every aspect of this site. I had assumed that there would be communication between the committee and the heads, but you're correct in everything you said about it. That is something that I should have added in my post as well, and I appreciate the honest feedback on it!

***fancey13*** · 02-23-2025, 02:29 PM

02-23-2025, 12:08 PMkahri Wrote: To go off what is said above, like I am a first gen myself who has multiple jobs. And like Mike said, many of the jobs are being held as first gen’s who just stuck either it. Almost every single job I have, I applied and have been there since I joined the league. So technically would I fall into the category as being a veteran with multiple jobs? Or a new user who just found their place with jobs they love and just haven’t left them in the year and half i’ve been in the league.

The only job I would have applied for most recent would be WJC HO. I truly only applied because I care about WJC but no one applies even when you sit there and beg them to so this kinda goes into my next point…

It may be in the media post but I also lack reading comprehension but I would be curious to see the first gen’s that responded vs the jobs they have applied for. Have they applied for jobs? What jobs were they? etc etc.

Since that information isn't available to the public, I would have to ask users to disclose exactly who applied for each job opening. This information I have my doubts if it would even get shared with me, and at that point it feels like I may be singling users out which isn't my intentions at all. Like the rest of us, I'm just trying to grow the community and throwing out some suggestions that I believe would benefit our experience

***fancey13*** · 02-23-2025, 02:32 PM

02-23-2025, 12:09 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: The SHL doesn’t become what it is today without tenured job holders providing crucial institutional knowledge. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for fresh meat, but sometimes you’ve got to lean on veteran power users to keep this place pushing to be the best it can be.

100% agreed. I outlined this in my post a few times. In both of my posts I have never once asked anybody to step down from a job or force anything. I have just simply outlined a problem that some new users have and ways we can try to make that experience better for them

***NYR73*** · 02-23-2025, 02:33 PM

We should get AI to do all our jobs and everyone just gets weekly stipends

The future is now…

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