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***fancey13*** · 02-23-2025, 02:36 PM

02-23-2025, 02:33 PMNYR73 Wrote: We should get AI to do all our jobs and everyone just gets weekly stipends

The future is now…

"Alexa, play The Boys In The Bright White Sports Car"

*kahri* · 02-23-2025, 03:02 PM

02-23-2025, 02:29 PMfancey13 Wrote: Since that information isn't available to the public, I would have to ask users to disclose exactly who applied for each job opening. This information I have my doubts if it would even get shared with me, and at that point it feels like I may be singling users out which isn't my intentions at all. Like the rest of us, I'm just trying to grow the community and throwing out some suggestions that I believe would benefit our experience

oh yeah totally agree! I was just curious because there are always half the people applying to jobs and just not getting it because someone else does but then there is the other half of people who just say “veterans take over the league” but yet they don’t apply to anything ever!

***fancey13*** · 02-23-2025, 03:30 PM

02-23-2025, 03:02 PMkahri Wrote: oh yeah totally agree! I was just curious because there are always half the people applying to jobs and just not getting it because someone else does but then there is the other half of people who just say “veterans take over the league” but yet they don’t apply to anything ever!

100% correct. I was never trying to state that wasn't the case either, but I do think that we could be doing better in some of the areas I highlighted. Those type of questions are the right questions to be asking though, because if nobody is applying then we have no need to expand ways to participate in the community!

***HabsFanFromOntario*** · 02-23-2025, 04:05 PM

I will say that a subsection of the league being the simmers has seen a great influx of some newer people, namely Raf, Wrekhz, Hetaksh and Noxu who are killing it there at a position that's notoriously been hard to find people for. Big shoutout to them there.

***noxu*** · 02-23-2025, 04:23 PM

02-23-2025, 04:05 PMHabsFanFromOntario Wrote: I will say that a subsection of the league being the simmers has seen a great influx of some newer people, namely Raf, Wrekhz, Hetaksh and Noxu who are killing it there at a position that's notoriously been hard to find people for. Big shoutout to them there.

I can't begin to bring how important the senior simmers have been in helping all new simmers learn how it works. FHM is really annoying sometimes and there's a lot to do before, after, and especially during each sim that it can be really daunting to first get started.

I think this can broadly apply to most jobs though, there should basically always be those veteran users who can help out if needed and hopefully there could also be eager new users who want to learn and join the team and are given the opportunity to join it!

***SDCore*** · 02-23-2025, 04:33 PM

I think it's kind of two fold. First I think that a lot of the "high" visibility jobs and the ones that get posted for most often are the ones that are not entry level. Think HOs, GMs, Dept Heads, and Simmers.

While simming can be entry level and wally/jimmy (the sim team as a whole), have done a great job brining in new people, again these are the same people who are already doing "entry" level jobs. Like I don't think anyone who has held a GM/HO/Dept Head job, should ever get an HO Intern job. When I was hired for that, there was some bemoaning because of my name and it being a legit entry level, BUT a lot of the league didn't know my past and why I was put as Intern. I think I've proven myself back in being trust in HO.

I will say that a bigger problem here is the lack of entry level jobs in the SHL. I can think of a handful, HO Interns, Graphics grader, media grader (nobody ever leaves), PT team (nobody ever leaves), historian, fantasy manager (nobody ever leaves), budget, and WJC and... well that's about it. (I know I'm missing some this is my perspective)

Most of the other jobs are consumed by people with multiple jobs, because they are the ones who are doing most of the work and dedicate most of the time. I also think that this league does a bad job hiring people who already have too many jobs if that's the BEST candidate over someone else, cause they'd rather not "teach" someone to do the work or that they just know they will be more reliable. AGAIN SO MUCH CREDIT TO THE SIM TEAM, who are getting much better at this.

I don't know how to solve the lack of entry level jobs now that things like updaters, bankers (less of them now then in the long long ago), and some of the "easier" site jobs are gone. It may be time to look at terms in general where you need to reapply after X seasons (like HO currently does)

I think maybe also adding more job interns, for people to get into discords/job spaces, earn a bit of money while learning if it's a job they want to do. They can observe talk, learn from those around them.

Just my 2 cents from a dude who has held many jobs here, but has cut back a lot to give others the opportunity.

***sköldpaddor*** · 02-23-2025, 04:50 PM

I really do want to talk to the thirteen(?) people who said "yes, veteran users are hoarding jobs and it's a problem" though because this is just...not enough to go on. What jobs are you talking about that you consider entry-level? what did you apply for and not get because there was a veteran user there instead? Without those details this is a lot of smoke without anything actionable.

Also, I do want to touch on one thing here and that's this. We (head office and department heads alike) will never have the time to do an in-depth job interview for everyone who applies for a job. Even in real life jobs, you don't always get an interview. If your application and your resume is garbage, no one is even going to call you. We have an applications guide here that ACap put together back in the day that's a great place to start. Jobs don't automatically go to the person with the best app, but if we don't even see that you're ready to put any effort into your app beyond "hey i wanna apply please hire me" we're going to be inclined to put our effort into the people who are giving that same courtesy to us.

I want to put this out there now, though, if you want to do work, if you're looking for a way to contribute to the league, you don't have to wait for a job post to go up! Come talk to me, or one of the rookie mentors, or any other veteran user you've had a good experience with, just ask if there's anything you can do to help out, tell us what you're interested in, and we will try to find something for you to do to make money. Even if it's not a job, people want to help you out, nobody wants you to struggle if you're genuinely interested in getting involved. I've done player interviews with people before, I'll commission sigs from people, I've been looking for people to edit shirsey templates for about two years now, there's a ton of stuff we could find for you to do.

But we can't help if it's just "grumble grumble I didn't get X job because they hired somebody with more experience instead" and no one ever receives that feedback.

hhh81 · 02-23-2025, 04:53 PM

02-23-2025, 12:05 PMjaypc8237 Wrote: Some of these made me laugh. Tons of these are either some of the hardest, and some of the most thankless jobs lmao. Specifically Historian. Its a hard job lmao

Amazing write up and good use of stats!

I disagree that historian is hard whatsoever, from my year plus on it. Super easy job, you just need to get the things updated seasonally. A new person can do that, easy. This is the end of what's directed to you, jaypc.

I will echo what others have said about awards not genuinely being a good "starter" job, at least until you've had a few seasons under your belt on site. I'll add something else--specifically in terms of the graphics related intro jobs, they have a barrier to entry that bars a huge chunk of users from ever being able to do them (knowing how to do graphics). Doesn't make them bad starter jobs, just forces some people to self-select out. There's really not a way to fix this, but does shrink the application pool.

The job that seems to never have a lot of turnover that probably could benefit from it is fantasy managers. Pretty simple job and one people never seem to leave (I only quit because I had other jobs and wanted to open up an opportunity for other users--not everyone thinks like that.)

We've all argued about why a "code of conduct" committee is unnecessary and flawed in the past, largely due to who tends to keep pushing that rock up the hill. And this "employment committee" sounds like extra layers of bureaucracy without any real useful payoff. I trust HO a hell of a lot more to effectively manage things without throwing another layer of red tape that they'd have to oversee anyway. And I also genuinely think some of the claims in these threads are overblown and would be solved by people simply posting the damn Application Guide in the job posting. Yes, it's pinned in the Job Postings forum, but redundancy is a positive in this case to help maximize the quality of apps and make sure newer users have the info. People have already done the work, and it's a good guide. Let's fucking use it.

I'll direct this next part to @fancey13 and start by saying I'm assuming positive intent. However, this term "veteran power users" is being used without clear definition of what you meant versus what respondents interpreted. Same goes for what an entry level job is; while defined in the thread responses, it doesn't appear that context was provided with the survey. That ambiguity, to me, invalidates those questions entirely. If your variables aren't clearly defined, that's bad survey design. You can't draw conclusions if there's a high likelihood your responses are using their own definitions that may contradict your intent.

***SDCore*** · 02-23-2025, 04:56 PM

02-23-2025, 04:50 PMsköldpaddor Wrote: I want to put this out there now, though, if you want to do work, if you're looking for a way to contribute to the league, you don't have to wait for a job post to go up! Come talk to me, or one of the rookie mentors, or any other veteran user you've had a good experience with, just ask if there's anything you can do to help out, tell us what you're interested in, and we will try to find something for you to do to make money. Even if it's not a job, people want to help you out, nobody wants you to struggle if you're genuinely interested in getting involved. I've done player interviews with people before, I'll commission sigs from people, I've been looking for people to edit shirsey templates for about two years now, there's a ton of stuff we could find for you to do.

At least two members of the sim team were hired this way last season... FYI

***fancey13*** · 02-23-2025, 05:04 PM

02-23-2025, 04:33 PMSDCore Wrote: I think it's kind of two fold. First I think that a lot of the "high" visibility jobs and the ones that get posted for most often are the ones that are not entry level. Think HOs, GMs, Dept Heads, and Simmers.

While simming can be entry level and wally/jimmy (the sim team as a whole), have done a great job brining in new people, again these are the same people who are already doing "entry" level jobs. Like I don't think anyone who has held a GM/HO/Dept Head job, should ever get an HO Intern job. When I was hired for that, there was some bemoaning because of my name and it being a legit entry level, BUT a lot of the league didn't know my past and why I was put as Intern. I think I've proven myself back in being trust in HO.

I will say that a bigger problem here is the lack of entry level jobs in the SHL. I can think of a handful, HO Interns, Graphics grader, media grader (nobody ever leaves), PT team (nobody ever leaves), historian, fantasy manager (nobody ever leaves), budget, and WJC and... well that's about it. (I know I'm missing some this is my perspective)

Most of the other jobs are consumed by people with multiple jobs, because they are the ones who are doing most of the work and dedicate most of the time. I also think that this league does a bad job hiring people who already have too many jobs if that's the BEST candidate over someone else, cause they'd rather not "teach" someone to do the work or that they just know they will be more reliable. AGAIN SO MUCH CREDIT TO THE SIM TEAM, who are getting much better at this.

I don't know how to solve the lack of entry level jobs now that things like updaters, bankers (less of them now then in the long long ago), and some of the "easier" site jobs are gone. It may be time to look at terms in general where you need to reapply after X seasons (like HO currently does)

I think maybe also adding more job interns, for people to get into discords/job spaces, earn a bit of money while learning if it's a job they want to do. They can observe talk, learn from those around them.

Just my 2 cents from a dude who has held many jobs here, but has cut back a lot to give others the opportunity.

I love this take Corey. This is just the discussion that I'm trying to bring forward. Of course there's sooo many facets to the conversation, who actually applies, what jobs are available for new people, etc. but I think that creating some more jobs that literally anybody can walk into and be met with a mixture of some great veteran users and some new users that are trying to find their way in the league is a must. Linking back to my previous media, expanding the league also means that we need to expand the community or we're looking at increased IA rates and a bunch of new teams that are full of IAs and dead LRs. I know for certain that I do not want to see that

***fancey13*** · 02-23-2025, 05:25 PM

02-23-2025, 04:53 PMhhh81 Wrote: I disagree that historian is hard whatsoever, from my year plus on it. Super easy job, you just need to get the things updated seasonally. A new person can do that, easy. This is the end of what's directed to you, jaypc.

I will echo what others have said about awards not genuinely being a good "starter" job, at least until you've had a few seasons under your belt on site. I'll add something else--specifically in terms of the graphics related intro jobs, they have a barrier to entry that bars a huge chunk of users from ever being able to do them (knowing how to do graphics). Doesn't make them bad starter jobs, just forces some people to self-select out. There's really not a way to fix this, but does shrink the application pool.

The job that seems to never have a lot of turnover that probably could benefit from it is fantasy managers. Pretty simple job and one people never seem to leave (I only quit because I had other jobs and wanted to open up an opportunity for other users--not everyone thinks like that.)

We've all argued about why a "code of conduct" committee is unnecessary and flawed in the past, largely due to who tends to keep pushing that rock up the hill. And this "employment committee" sounds like extra layers of bureaucracy without any real useful payoff. I trust HO a hell of a lot more to effectively manage things without throwing another layer of red tape that they'd have to oversee anyway. And I also genuinely think some of the claims in these threads are overblown and would be solved by people simply posting the damn Application Guide in the job posting. Yes, it's pinned in the Job Postings forum, but redundancy is a positive in this case to help maximize the quality of apps and make sure newer users have the info. People have already done the work, and it's a good guide. Let's fucking use it.

I'll direct this next part to @fancey13 and start by saying I'm assuming positive intent. However, this term "veteran power users" is being used without clear definition of what you meant versus what respondents interpreted. Same goes for what an entry level job is; while defined in the thread responses, it doesn't appear that context was provided with the survey. That ambiguity, to me, invalidates those questions entirely. If your variables aren't clearly defined, that's bad survey design. You can't draw conclusions if there's a high likelihood your responses are using their own definitions that may contradict your intent.

So a couple things,
First, I actually had no idea that an application guide even existed. In that case, I 100% agree with you in the sense that we should be using it more and it should be made more accessible. Sure it's pinned there, but I've had a couple jobs now and didn't even know it was a thing. Maybe actively using that like you said would eliminate dead applications instead of just putting it somewhere on the forums, which is the most difficult to navigate as a new user.

Second, not necessarily. The intent of the survey itself was to identify if users felt like it was a genuine issue or not. Those interpretations tell me how users feel without looking at singular users in positions. These media posts I tried extremely hard to walk on the fine line of asking if there's an issue, without starting to single out users or make anyone feel like I was talking about or directing shade at them. If users are drawing their own definitions of what constitutes a veteran power user and an entry level job, that's actually exactly what I'm looking for. It's been outlined in both of these threads that people disagree about what constitutes as both but the fact, at face value, remains that I'm not the only user that feels there's an issue that could be solved in some way. That's what I was looking for, that's what tells me that other people agree or disagree. If I directly laid out those things, I had feared that users would think that I was directly talking about them which was never my intent. Those that answered yes feel like there's an issue and those that answered no feel there isn't an issue. That's all I wanted

*JURT* · 02-23-2025, 06:01 PM

HO promised us Jobs for All back in S70 and still hasn't delivered. I would like to call a no-confidence vote towards @WannabeFinn and @sköldpaddor (@Frenchie gets a pass because he wasn't co-commish at the time)

*MikeLiut* · 02-23-2025, 06:18 PM

I agree with most of the points discussed here. However, I still want to say, @fancey13, that your concerns and arguments are valid. A few years ago, I might have taken your editorial angle myself - wanting to fully invest in my new community, ensuring I max earned, but still being denied jobs. The angle of "SHL unemployment" - the willingness/desire to have a job but not having any - might be the missing factor in your analysis. The recent draft class is great news for the league, but it also brings challenges in this regard and could impact retention if the perception of involvement opportunities remains low, which you’ve highlighted.

As some have mentioned, we need to differentiate between strategic roles (HO, GM, department head) and more (entry-level? technical?) jobs (Se7en’s list, to which I would add scouts in the SMJHL) to get a clearer picture of the situation. Your message helped me become more aware of these issues, and I appreciate that.

***sve7en*** · 02-23-2025, 06:31 PM

02-23-2025, 06:18 PMMikeLiut Wrote: I agree with most of the points discussed here. However, I still want to say, @fancey13, that your concerns and arguments are valid. A few years ago, I might have taken your editorial angle myself - wanting to fully invest in my new community, ensuring I max earned, but still being denied jobs. The angle of "SHL unemployment" - the willingness/desire to have a job but not having any - might be the missing factor in your analysis. The recent draft class is great news for the league, but it also brings challenges in this regard and could impact retention if the perception of involvement opportunities remains low, which you’ve highlighted.

As some have mentioned, we need to differentiate between strategic roles (HO, GM, department head) and more (entry-level? technical?) jobs (Se7en’s list, to which I would add scouts in the SMJHL) to get a clearer picture of the situation. Your message helped me become more aware of these issues, and I appreciate that.

Fwiw I left scouts and other internal team roles because of the discussions from GM chat where thats not a job where the motivation factor is maintaining the league or making money and that those don't have application processes where a user could be denied.

***fancey13*** · 02-23-2025, 06:37 PM

02-23-2025, 06:18 PMMikeLiut Wrote: I agree with most of the points discussed here. However, I still want to say, @fancey13, that your concerns and arguments are valid. A few years ago, I might have taken your editorial angle myself - wanting to fully invest in my new community, ensuring I max earned, but still being denied jobs. The angle of "SHL unemployment" - the willingness/desire to have a job but not having any - might be the missing factor in your analysis. The recent draft class is great news for the league, but it also brings challenges in this regard and could impact retention if the perception of involvement opportunities remains low, which you’ve highlighted.

As some have mentioned, we need to differentiate between strategic roles (HO, GM, department head) and more (entry-level? technical?) jobs (Se7en’s list, to which I would add scouts in the SMJHL) to get a clearer picture of the situation. Your message helped me become more aware of these issues, and I appreciate that.

I'm glad that my points have came across with you well. I think it's easy to maybe look over some of the challenges of starting out in the league once we've all established ourselves in a community here. I know for myself, and probably you as well, that having a GM role does a lot of the heavy lifting for my activity here. If I wasn't in that role, my own personal activity would be a question mark at best. My point being, if we continue to spit out 100 user draft classes without creating new paths for users to actively engage in some sort of community, I fear that average IA users per class (which I believe is around 40%) will rise

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