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Goalie problems
#1

Many people, especially goalies, seem to find the sim is way too random and a goalie with 800 tpe can perform better than a 1.6k tpe goalie as long as ges got a good team in front of him. Also, a weak goalie doesnt seem to hinder astrong team, nor does a great goalie improve a crappy team much.

I feel like the main issue is that a goalie needs very little TPE to start getting his main attributes in the 90s. Lets take Wong for example, one of the worst goalies TPE wise, but check out what his 800~ tpe build gives him

SK = Skating: 85
EN = Endurance: 85
DU = Durability: 50
SZ = Size: 85
AG = Agility: 85
RB = Rebound Control: 95
SC = Style Control: 95
HS = Hand Speed: 96
RT = Reaction Time: 96
PH = Puck Handling: 50
PS = Penalty Shot: 50

Pretty damn solid.


My suggestion is to put the harsher update scale that we have on skaters, on goalies as well. I know it was done this way to make the much needed position more attractive, but why not just up the number of seasons it takes to start regression?

Make the update scale the same for players and goalies, but make goalies start regressing after 15 seasons instead of 10.

This makes it more realistic, younger goalies or not active enough goalies will hinder their team while a strong goalie will be in demand. And goalies in real life last longer, so regression starting later brings it closer to reality.

Ive been maxed out for like 3 seasons now, just building the bank over 400 tpe, meanwhile all the younger goalies are edging closer to me in the sim, while i just bank for regression.
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#2

In general goalies to tend to hit their prime later than skaters and usually end up going a bit longer career wise too.

It would make sense in that way. +1 from me.

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#3

How much longer does the extra unused TPE fight regression than it would for a skater? Just extend the period before regression by that amount. 5 may be a little much, but maybe not. I think having a more aggressive scale would be good if this is becoming a problem for goalies. Hard to feel good as a goalie when worse players are out performing you consistently just based on team play.
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#4

Quote:Originally posted by Zoone16@Aug 22 2017, 05:06 PM
In general goalies to tend to hit their prime later than skaters and usually end up going a bit longer career wise too.

It would make sense in that way. +1 from me.
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#5

Quote:Originally posted by Zoone16@Aug 22 2017, 04:06 PM
In general goalies to tend to hit their prime later than skaters and usually end up going a bit longer career wise too.

It would make sense in that way. +1 from me.

The problem with goalies is we don't really have a "prime". More TPE doesn't necessarily mean we're going to play better. Team play is 3/4 of what determines a goalies stats, if not more, and this brings it to where being a goalie just isn't fun.

We see no progression. Players like Evans, Volkova, Light and Redding have steadily seen their numbers increase from S30. My numbers on the other hand have been at the mercy of what the Panthers team looks like. One of my best years was when I had 720 TPE. This year? I look like absolute shit.

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#6

Quote:Originally posted by InciteHysteria@Aug 22 2017, 06:18 PM


The problem with goalies is we don't really have a "prime". More TPE doesn't necessarily mean we're going to play better. Team play is 3/4 of what determines a goalies stats, if not more, and this brings it to where being a goalie just isn't fun.

We see no progression. Players like Evans, Volkova, Light and Redding have steadily seen their numbers increase from S30. My numbers on the other hand have been at the mercy of what the Panthers team looks like. One of my best years was when I had 720 TPE. This year? I look like absolute shit.

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It's possible that what Deezy is saying is also true. While yes, team play will determine stats, however it is also possible that a 720 TPE goalie is performing well because all his primary stats are still at 95.

If we change it so that a 720 TPE goalie has his 3 primary stats are 80 or 85, will that make a difference? Maybe.

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#7

Would I have to lower a bunch of attributes then?

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#8

For a quick comparison, this is Jimmy Wagner's build, 518 TPE earned, 453 applied (fractions don't go into the sim so 76 1/2 is just 76)

Points Available: 64
SK = Skating: 72
DU = Durability: 50
EN = Endurance: 67
SZ = Size: 76 1/2
AG = Agility: 73
RB = Rebound Control: 87
SC = Style Control: 90
HS = Hand Speed: 90
RT = Reaction Time: 87
PH = Puck Handling: 50
PS = Penalty Shot: 50

90s! With less than 500 TPE he could have the 4 most important stats to 90.

Here's what his build would look like using the skater update scale, with the same amounts of TPE applied to each attribute:

Points Available: 64
SK = Skating: 64 [4/6]
DU = Durability: 50
EN = Endurance: 63 [1/2]
SZ = Size: 70 [2/4]
AG = Agility: 68
RB = Rebound Control: 80 [5/8]
SC = Style Control: 82 [4/8]
HS = Hand Speed: 82 [4/8]
RT = Reaction Time: 80 [5/8]
PH = Puck Handling: 50
PS = Penalty Shot: 50

That's a pretty significant difference, especially where the major stats are concerned. I'd say the 3 primary stats plus the quality of the team in front of the goalie likely make up 90% of how well a goalie will play, and we allow guys with 500 TPE to have 90s in all the primary stats. Of course they're going to play near the level of higher TPE goalies, since the higher TPE guys have all that extra TPE in the less useful stats.

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#9

Sim randomness with goalies will always take place tho

unless we switch sims(version rather) but I rlly doubt goalies want to go bk to having sub 0.900 sv% as the league ldr

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#10

FUCK GOALIES! Just ban goalies and make them all bots. We're basically indistinguishable. I don't even think that would be a bad idea.

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#11

What many don't acknowledge are the attributes EX and MO (experience and morale). While our league doesn't recognize either as part of our need for goalies to progress. Both are multipliers that effect not only team play, but also individual play. To note, individual morale is different from team morale.

In speaking with two back end developers, SimonT was designed to replicate the realism as much as possible. A rookie coming in to the league is unlikely to shine on a team with less experience, whereas a rookie on a team with more experience has the best opportunity to flourish early on. Unlike skater EX and MO the ratio of player to line mates is much lower than goalie to team.

To summarize my brief response, because I'm at work and about to get back on the road, the SHL has limited the effect goalies have on a team which leaves very little room for creativeness when it comes to goalies. Skaters rely on the bread and butter attributes, where as goaltenders rely more heavily on both physical and mental attributes, to which the entire sim engine was built for.

I'm absolutely down for making the update scale harder, but this won't create uniqueness if that is the goal or gradual, yet noticeable improvements.

I will follow up in the morning with more detailed feedback I have received.

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#12

Who we gotta tag to get HO seeing this?
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#13

Speaking strictly to goalie performance based on tpe level... From what I've seen over the years, gotta just take the good seasons with the bad seasons when you're a goalie. There's too much randomness in sths for the top tpe goalies to always play like the top goalies. I don't think we'll ever achieve that.

Every season when the sim starts, a few goalies seem to randomly get favored by sths regardless of tpe level. While others seem to get unfavorable numbers for no other reason than bad luck. This seems to usually happens regardless of team strength, tpe levels, etc. It's just how it goes.

This is why Haas was lights out that one year as a 700's tpe goalie and someone like McFadden at 1200+ could struggle. It changes every season. Yes team strength plays a role to a degree, but more so with wins than goalie peripherals. I've watched Wong barely be able to maintain a .900 save % for the majority of his career while we've had a very strong team every season and allowed the lowest shots against many times. He was often unlucky in his SV% and GAA. This year he's one of the lucky ones when the season began. Haas on the other hand is one of the unlucky ones. There's no changing this trend imo, I think it will continue to happen regardless of tpe scale or goalie builds. Just have to make sure you have a solid build, your team is running a good system and hope for a little luck from sths. Usually things even out over the course of the season.

We see the same thing to a degree with Shooting %'s from skaters. Some teams come out hot, players score on a high % of their shots, while others get stuck with 3-5% shooting from their top players. I've been on both sides with Calgary. Not much can be done about this, it happens a lot. Have to ride it out, make a build/system change and hope for the best.

Once in a while a lower tpe goalie will play outstanding and a higher tpe goalie with struggle. We've always seen that happen here. Too much randomness in the sim imo to ever get the top 5 tpe goalies to play like the top 5 goalies.

This season we have two high tpe goalies with the two highest SV% in McFadden and Flood, that's pretty solid.

I've worked very closely with Wong over his career and I know it can be frustrating for a high tpe goalie to not perform as well as his tpe would suggest. I think this will always be the case though, regardless of an update scale change, etc.

Sim is just too random to achieve this imo.

Can't speak to how Morale or Experience would play a role, but that's what I've found over the years with tpe and goalie performance.

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#14

Oddly enough, I feel like to an extent, this mirrors reality. I know it's cheesy for this sim league, and I'm not saying it's right- but NHL goal tenders, outside a select few, almost feel like a done a dozen, with the quality of team around them being if the utmost importance. Just a random thought. Sorry it sucks being a goal tender in STHS.

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#15

Quote:Originally posted by Steelhead77@Aug 22 2017, 10:47 PM
Speaking strictly to goalie performance based on tpe level... From what I've seen over the years, gotta just take the good seasons with the bad seasons when you're a goalie. There's too much randomness in sths for the top tpe goalies to always play like the top goalies. I don't think we'll ever achieve that.

Every season when the sim starts, a few goalies seem to randomly get favored by sths regardless of tpe level. While others seem to get unfavorable numbers for no other reason than bad luck. This seems to usually happens regardless of team strength, tpe levels, etc. It's just how it goes.

This is why Haas was lights out that one year as a 700's tpe goalie and someone like McFadden at 1200+ could struggle. It changes every season. Yes team strength plays a role to a degree, but more so with wins than goalie peripherals. I've watched Wong barely be able to maintain a .900 save % for the majority of his career while we've had a very strong team every season and allowed the lowest shots against many times. He was often unlucky in his SV% and GAA. This year he's one of the lucky ones when the season began. Haas on the other hand is one of the unlucky ones. There's no changing this trend imo, I think it will continue to happen regardless of tpe scale or goalie builds. Just have to make sure you have a solid build, your team is running a good system and hope for a little luck from sths. Usually things even out over the course of the season.

We see the same thing to a degree with Shooting %'s from skaters. Some teams come out hot, players score on a high % of their shots, while others get stuck with 3-5% shooting from their top players. I've been on both sides with Calgary. Not much can be done about this, it happens a lot. Have to ride it out, make a build/system change and hope for the best.

Once in a while a lower tpe goalie will play outstanding and a higher tpe goalie with struggle. We've always seen that happen here. Too much randomness in the sim imo to ever get the top 5 tpe goalies to play like the top 5 goalies.

This season we have two high tpe goalies with the two highest SV% in McFadden and Flood, that's pretty solid.

I've worked very closely with Wong over his career and I know it can be frustrating for a high tpe goalie to not perform as well as his tpe would suggest. I think this will always be the case though, regardless of an update scale change, etc.

Sim is just too random to achieve this imo.

Can't speak to how Morale or Experience would play a role, but that's what I've found over the years with tpe and goalie performance.

But I feel like the reason it has been this way for so long, is because it takes so little to become a strong goalie. Wong's been regressed immensely and his attributes are still very solid. So if the Dragons are well built, and he's got a bit of the randomness on his side, he can be amazing cause his stats are great.


This comparison is exactly what I mean:

Quote:
For a quick comparison, this is Jimmy Wagner's build, 518 TPE earned, 453 applied (fractions don't go into the sim so 76 1/2 is just 76)

Points Available: 64
SK = Skating: 72
DU = Durability: 50
EN = Endurance: 67
SZ = Size: 76 1/2
AG = Agility: 73
RB = Rebound Control: 87
SC = Style Control: 90
HS = Hand Speed: 90
RT = Reaction Time: 87
PH = Puck Handling: 50
PS = Penalty Shot: 50

90s! With less than 500 TPE he could have the 4 most important stats to 90.

Here's what his build would look like using the skater update scale, with the same amounts of TPE applied to each attribute:

Points Available: 64
SK = Skating: 64 [4/6]
DU = Durability: 50
EN = Endurance: 63 [1/2]
SZ = Size: 70 [2/4]
AG = Agility: 68
RB = Rebound Control: 80 [5/8]
SC = Style Control: 82 [4/8]
HS = Hand Speed: 82 [4/8]
RT = Reaction Time: 80 [5/8]
PH = Puck Handling: 50
PS = Penalty Shot: 50

That's a pretty significant difference, especially where the major stats are concerned. I'd say the 3 primary stats plus the quality of the team in front of the goalie likely make up 90% of how well a goalie will play, and we allow guys with 500 TPE to have 90s in all the primary stats. Of course they're going to play near the level of higher TPE goalies, since the higher TPE guys have all that extra TPE in the less useful stats.


It's like right now our worst goalies can be compared to Matt Murray and our best compared to Brobrovsky. Both goalies are very good, and if Brobrovsky is on Colorado, he'll be bad, and if Murray is on Pitsburgh he'll win 2 cups. But we have no Varlamovs or Masons who are significantly weaker than goalies like Price or Lundqvist.

Look at Jordin Fourfour Jr. he's a S35 goalie, nearing 500 TPE, and look at the above example what 500 TPE can look like on a goalie, so this is some kid who just made it out of juniors and he could have a build like that. Give him another season or 2 in the juniors and he's going to have a build nearly as equal as every other goalie lol..

If we make the update scale even for skaters and goalies, teams will suffer if they start a weak goalie, and that will make goalies actually mean something in this league. Right now, how many teams would actually give something up to acquire a goalie, seeing as all goalies are basically equal, they are all basically worthless to any team besides Hamilton :lol:

and in doing so, we wont have goalies with banks piling up over 400 TPE at regression loll.. This is 400 TPE that I can't use on my player because im litteraly maxed out. Same goes for Laukkanen and probably others will join
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