Quote:Originally posted by Insayne@Dec 29 2017, 01:09 PM I don't have much to add as far as content or discussion is concerned, but just be aware that the "old-boys club" here on the site are both vocal and stubborn. You are going to see tremendous push-back on any change regardless if it has merits or not.
MOST of their stubbornness is for good reason and it helps to keep excessively poor ideas from becoming a mainstay in the league but every now and then it can and will actively block progress on the site.
Just be aware you're in an uphill battle.
Yeah it’s been noted. Alot of “nah never worked before†because of greed with the agents and apparently lack there of of regulations and such i’m sure sours the idea to most who were around in the first go about.
Quote:Originally posted by Wasty@Dec 29 2017, 01:19 PM
I wanted to also touch upon this part... Lets say what you have 3-4 agents that "pass" and you limit clients, so would you say 4 to 5 clients? So lets say 4 of those clients re-signed for 3 seasons and the 5th one is signed for 8 like some others are.
So... whats the point of an agent if that one agent who has 5 clients isn't doing anything for 3 seasons?
Do you want an agent to what check in daily with their player? every season?
What should an agent do in between contract negotiations?
Are you going have agents talking to GMs about where a player is in the lineup if they're "unhappy"? Will there be line-up placement requests and ice-time promises going to be added as well?
Players RARELY have to worry about contracts and the negotiations don't last very long. If they choose to test FA, most players welcome that idea and shouldn't need a third person which usually muddles the process.
I just don't see where agents are truly missing from the SHL even with a regulated system.
So let’s touch on your points;
1. You can very well end the client/agent relationship and step back to a mentor role after a contract has been negotiated. An “official†client that would be included on your public client list would be those in talks or say people who take you on before they begin FA for consulting of their players value and either having you continue negotiations for them or they taking the consulting and dealing with it themselves but, it’s still a way for players to earn more rather than hey you want 3x3? Ya ok. Expands options for player/GM interactions.
2. Between contract negotiations an agent is the player like the rest of us. I still think any consulting towards fair player value would be tracked as well so the GMs aren’t blind sided by the “I think i’m gonna test my options†conversation from either the player themselves or the agent. That being said this can’t violate tampering and no team signing suggestions are to be discussed or be subject to punishment. But, if you say hey man I participated in 80% of possible TPE, i’m active in discord and my build is pretty good, what do you think I could get on the open market with current needs? Is a healthy conversation. It’s been stated that at the SHL level money is much more important with increased costs so why not attempt to reasonably maximize their earnings to have a leg up on competition.
3. Ice time promises are unrealistic and shouldn’t be argued for in this setting. The only way I could see that being a factor of discussion is in the do I stay in juniors or do you call me up debate and even then, it should be a happy medium between both parties not strong arming. About negotiations rarely going in a different direction like I said, I think alot of players really underestimate their value as a player and while I understand some GM’s don’t have a problem saying name your dollar amount and term, maybe it would allow some shift of cap to where we see more players traded off towards the end of their deals or more front loaded contracts etc, it opens a realm of possibilities. I’m not saying that agents are “missing†per say but more could be a nice addition which holds a different meaning. Wether that’s becoming a league job, opening up more jobs for an HO payout, having capped commission or just having no commission at all which is a possibility as well. I just think too many people are shooting this down from past experience without seeing real flushed out talking points, like this conversation I think is very beneficial into the insight of my mindset towards being the head of this operation as well as how the agent role would work.
Quote:Originally posted by Kmichael@Dec 29 2017, 06:01 AM
So let’s touch on your points;
1. You can very well end the client/agent relationship and step back to a mentor role after a contract has been negotiated. An “official†client that would be included on your public client list would be those in talks or say people who take you on before they begin FA for consulting of their players value and either having you continue negotiations for them or they taking the consulting and dealing with it themselves but, it’s still a way for players to earn more rather than hey you want 3x3? Ya ok. Expands options for player/GM interactions.
2. Between contract negotiations an agent is the player like the rest of us. I still think any consulting towards fair player value would be tracked as well so the GMs aren’t blind sided by the “I think i’m gonna test my options†conversation from either the player themselves or the agent. That being said this can’t violate tampering and no team signing suggestions are to be discussed or be subject to punishment. But, if you say hey man I participated in 80% of possible TPE, i’m active in discord and my build is pretty good, what do you think I could get on the open market with current needs? Is a healthy conversation. It’s been stated that at the SHL level money is much more important with increased costs so why not attempt to reasonably maximize their earnings to have a leg up on competition.
3. Ice time promises are unrealistic and shouldn’t be argued for in this setting. The only way I could see that being a factor of discussion is in the do I stay in juniors or do you call me up debate and even then, it should be a happy medium between both parties not strong arming. About negotiations rarely going in a different direction like I said, I think alot of players really underestimate their value as a player and while I understand some GM’s don’t have a problem saying name your dollar amount and term, maybe it would allow some shift of cap to where we see more players traded off towards the end of their deals or more front loaded contracts etc, it opens a realm of possibilities. I’m not saying that agents are “missing†per say but more could be a nice addition which holds a different meaning. Wether that’s becoming a league job, opening up more jobs for an HO payout, having capped commission or just having no commission at all which is a possibility as well. I just think too many people are shooting this down from past experience without seeing real flushed out talking points, like this conversation I think is very beneficial into the insight of my mindset towards being the head of this operation as well as how the agent role would work.
I’m glad you think it’s beneficial, but I’m sorry I just read everything you wrote and I still see zero need for it. Players that NEED money such as rookies or non recreates aren’t going to get more much more than what a 1400+TPE player that doesn’t need money and takes 5M per season. And fair player value is a term you keep throwing around but the fair player value for an active 800+ player is about 3-4M and that doesn’t take much negotiation.
Front loading contracts can’t work with the current salary minimum unless you think if a player that makes 6M at 600TPE and then at the end makes 4M or 5M which really doesn’t need an agent to negotiate.
The last thing GMs need in this league is another outside voice pushing a player to ask for money. Commission based pay even capped is an awful idea. I’m sorry to sound so negative about this but you can tell I’m pretty passionate about agents never making a return in the SHL. There is no need for it, sorry.
#40 Niclas Wastlund - W - VANCOUVER WHALERS / MINNESOTA MONARCHS
I have to agree with the points made by Avakael and Grapehead (as well as some others), I actually think that agents are an enticing idea that sounds like it could add some fun new elements to the league, but it has been tried multiple times in the past and has never worked despite the initial hype, and I also see little added benefits from it now. All that agents would really do is create drama and distrust between GMs and players while also opening up another big grey area and risk factor when it comes to tampering. I sometimes argue that we cater to the GMs needs a bit too much when it comes to the rules, but in this case I would absolutely be against adding something that makes life much harder for them and can also possibly hurt the relationship they have with their players, and the team atmosphere in general.
Most players that are earning the league minimum aren't doing so because they got ripped off by their GM due to their lack of negotiation prowess, but because they want to help their team. The difference between earning $4 million and earning $8 million actually isn't that significant for many people, especially if you write the occasional article - but it you settle for the $4 million then your team can sign an extra 1000+ TPE player. Most people who have some feeling of loyalty towards their team or who want to have the best chance at a cup will choose the latter option and if you want to change that then I don't think agents would be the way to go. There'd be other, more effective things to look into like salary cap adjustments or a store specifically for contract money, as well as general salary overhauls. Not that it is a very pressing issue either way imho, if we want to go for some big sweeping changes then I'd argue that there are other areas to adress first.
Contract negotiations are some of the most fun parts of being a player imo, don’t understand why anyone would want to hire someone to handle something that really only takes a few PMs between GM and player to handle.
san francisco group of cats - mikael koskinen quebec city citadelz - mikael koskinen
Quote:Originally posted by Storm@Dec 29 2017, 03:14 PM Contract negotiations are some of the most fun parts of being a player imo, don’t understand why anyone would want to hire someone to handle something that really only takes a few PMs between GM and player to handle.
Adds to the realism factor and another insight on your players value. Honestly feel as though if I revised agent to state “Player consultant†opinions would vastly change.
Quote:Originally posted by Grapehead@Dec 29 2017, 01:29 PM
I don't think there are many cases of contract disputes here, as you say most people want to take minimum. I think the salary cap would need to be adjusted regularly to keep up with changing contract demands if agents were brought back.
Try not to shape it as a fix to something that isn’t broken but just an added feature for those to indulge if they so please. Changes to cap isn’t definitively a bad thing
Quote:Originally posted by Kmichael@Dec 29 2017, 04:45 AM
Not at argument
You, as a member of this forum, are the agent of your player. You can only be the agent of your player and only your player. Implementing the ability to have other members negotiate contracts for you brings up all kinds of loopholes regarding players who go inactive. If I am not interested enough in the league that I want another member to manage my player, then they'll go inactive and basically give their player to another member. There is a reason we have rules against having multiple players in the league, one player per member. Trust me, even though this won't get implemented, it would be abused in short time if it ever was. That is why this is a terrible idea.
Quote:Originally posted by QuantumCowboy@Dec 29 2017, 03:29 PM
You, as a member of this forum, are the agent of your player. You can only be the agent of your player and only your player. Implementing the ability to have other members negotiate contracts for you brings up all kinds of loopholes regarding players who go inactive. If I am not interested enough in the league that I want another member to manage my player, then they'll go inactive and basically give their player to another member. There is a reason we have rules against having multiple players in the league, one player per member. Trust me, even though this won't get implemented, it would be abused in short time if it ever was. That is why this is a terrible idea.
Do you mind being specific in what loopholes you’re establishing by having this happen? I’m speaking strictly of contract negotiations and acting as a players consulant otherwise. Blanket claims about it being abused doesn’t add anything to the discussion because you’re just fear mongering the topic to dissaude conversation. What’s to stop regulations of inactive players like an agent having to drop them immediately? Or having to maintain a certain TPE percentange of activities to qualify for an agent? These are the kind of ideas you’re shutting down with ultimatium statements.
Quote:Originally posted by Kmichael@Dec 29 2017, 10:26 AM
Adds to the realism factor and another insight on your players value. Honestly feel as though if I revised agent to state “Player consultant†opinions would vastly change.
I'm overall against the idea of Player Agents. I'd even argue that it would lead to less interactions on the site as players wouldn't need to talk to the GMs and just leave their agents doing the negotiations. I've gone through a few contracts on my player, I've tested free agency. Most GMs are more than happy to shell out the money for a USER that they value in the community rather than the player itself. Most players are satisfied with taking theminimum the tier they're in allows them to. You need to remember that contracts are just one aspect of earning money on the SHL. Media and graphics are also there. There is more than only money to improve your player. PTs and predictions and other are present.
I know you're trying hard to push your idea of player agents through but if you think for a second, isn't the user the real player agent for his own player? I do consider that myself, Zoone16, am the player agent of my own player, Alex Light.
Quote:Originally posted by Kmichael@Dec 29 2017, 04:26 PM
Adds to the realism factor and another insight on your players value. Honestly feel as though if I revised agent to state “Player consultant†opinions would vastly change.
as well. As I mentioned above most players are looking for team-friendly deals anyway, but those few who aren't doing that and who actually care about the money and/or the validation that comes with it have no reason to outsource that aspect because it is actually something they enjoy.
Quote:Originally posted by Zoone16@Dec 29 2017, 07:42 AM
I'm overall against the idea of Player Agents. I'd even argue that it would lead to less interactions on the site as players wouldn't need to talk to the GMs and just leave their agents doing the negotiations. I've gone through a few contracts on my player, I've tested free agency. Most GMs are more than happy to shell out the money for a USER that they value in the community rather than the player itself. Most players are satisfied with taking theminimum the tier they're in allows them to. You need to remember that contracts are just one aspect of earning money on the SHL. Media and graphics are also there. There is more than only money to improve your player. PTs and predictions and other are present.
I know you're trying hard to push your idea of player agents through but if you think for a second, isn't the user the real player agent for his own player? I do consider that myself, Zoone16, am the player agent of my own player, Alex Light.
This.
#40 Niclas Wastlund - W - VANCOUVER WHALERS / MINNESOTA MONARCHS
Quote:Originally posted by RomanesEuntDomus@Dec 29 2017, 03:45 PM
as well. As I mentioned above most players are looking for team-friendly deals anyway, but those few who aren't doing that and who actually care about the money and/or the validation that comes with it have no reason to outsource that aspect because it is actually something they enjoy.
We’re also opening the door to money being viewed differently contractually as well. I’m glad this has sparked as much discussion as it has. Even if the outsourcing of contract negotiation, NOT a player speaking with a GM about how they’ll mesh in the LR, was probono, do you think player consulting wouldn’t be beneficial to newer joining players or still green players who don’t fully understand player value? Most arguments against have been from the point of authority of GMs/long standing players basing it off of the previous bad experience.
Quote:Originally posted by Kmichael@Dec 29 2017, 07:55 AM
We’re also opening the door to money being viewed differently contractually as well. I’m glad this has sparked as much discussion as it has. Even if the outsourcing of contract negotiation, NOT a player speaking with a GM about how they’ll mesh in the LR, was probono, do you think player consulting wouldn’t be beneficial to newer joining players or still green players who don’t fully understand player value? Most arguments against have been from the point of authority of GMs/long standing players basing it off of the previous bad experience.
GMs aren’t out to screw over new or green players who don’t know their value. There are rookie mentors for that very reason to help in the beginning stages but as far as a rookie or player value is concerned there isn’t a true need for such a role because GMs that are good shouldn’t be out trying to fuck over prospects and they shouldn’t command anything more than 3 or 4M on an ELC and by the time their second contract talks should be around they should damn well know the value of their player. But again like people have been saying MOST players take the minimum because it helps their team. If they need money it’s not hard to tell a GM hey I need some extra $$ cause I can’t get articles up that often.
#40 Niclas Wastlund - W - VANCOUVER WHALERS / MINNESOTA MONARCHS
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as well. As I mentioned above most players are looking for team-friendly deals anyway, but those few who aren't doing that and who actually care about the money and/or the validation that comes with it have no reason to outsource that aspect because it is actually something they enjoy.
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