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Allegiant · 12-29-2017, 12:10 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Wasty@Dec 29 2017, 12:02 PM

GMs arenâ€™t out to screw over new or green players who donâ€™t know their value. There are rookie mentors for that very reason to help in the beginning stages but as far as a rookie or player value is concerned there isnâ€™t a true need for such a role because GMs that are good shouldnâ€™t be out trying to fuck over prospects and they shouldnâ€™t command anything more than 3 or 4M on an ELC and by the time their second contract talks should be around they should damn well know the value of their player. But again like people have been saying MOST players take the minimum because it helps their team. If they need money itâ€™s not hard to tell a GM hey I need some extra $$ cause I canâ€™t get articles up that often.

When I got started on Windsor, I thought I should take a minimum deal to look like a team player, and my GM negotiated my price upwards to my benefit because he knew I needed the money for training.

Player agents are a fun idea in theory, but I do think the nature of GM-player relationships in SHL as a casual sim league make them an unnecessary hindrance to what tend to be smooth discussions.

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 12-29-2017, 12:21 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Kmichael@Dec 29 2017, 04:55 PM

Weâ€™re also opening the door to money being viewed differently contractually as well. Iâ€™m glad this has sparked as much discussion as it has. Even if the outsourcing of contract negotiation, NOT a player speaking with a GM about how theyâ€™ll mesh in the LR, was probono, do you think player consulting wouldnâ€™t be beneficial to newer joining players or still green players who donâ€™t fully understand player value? Most arguments against have been from the point of authority of GMs/long standing players basing it off of the previous bad experience.

Player consulting is indeed a good thing but you don't need an agent for that, you can ask your teammates for advice, talk to other members of your draft class or approach veterans or the SHL as a whole on the public boards or in Discord. An agent might streamline this a bit but I'd argue that there is bigger value in talking to different sources and in meeting as many new people as possible than there is in just talking to one guy for all your advice - especially since we are still talking about an agent here and not about a rookie mentor. Also, from a pure market perspective, most new players don't have a lot of value or at least they shouldn't have. If you have just 500-700 TPE than you likely won't be a big contributor just yet, so there is no real basis to pay a rookie more than 2-3M from a "realism" perspective. It certainly doesn't happen in the NHL, in fact I'd argue that we already pay rookies exceptionally well compared to what the superstars make, their percentage of the cake is already much bigger than it is in real-life. Most GMs who have the capspace for it will choose to give that extra money to their youngest players and to newer members, they know that this is a better investment than giving an extra million or two to some jaded vet.

And by the way, todays salaries are already significantly higher than they were in the past, when the league didn't have minimum contract tiers altogether ot those tiers were lower than they are today . Back then people regularly signed for just 500k and many made something between 500k and 2M and that includes both new members and the leagues superstars. The average salary, especially for middle-tier players, has significantly improved since then but you don't know about that because for a new member such as yourself, the current salary structure naturally is the only point of reference that you have. I'm not saying this to devalue your opinion as a "newbie", it is good that you started this discussion and that your actively participate in it and challenge the status quo. But you seem to be quite quick to dismiss the opinions of veteran members and label them as an hostile old boys club, and I don't think that is a good idea. The SHL has gone through quite a few structural changes which have taught us some valuable lessons, so maybe there is some wisdom to the words of the people who have been around to see these changes and their effects?

sash · 12-29-2017, 12:27 PM

im a fan of something new

Beaver · 12-29-2017, 12:31 PM

Quote:Originally posted by RomanesEuntDomus@Dec 29 2017, 09:41 AM
All that agents would really do is create drama and distrust between GMs and players while also opening up another big grey area and risk factor when it comes to tampering.

Okay you've sold me, I'm on board with this idea now.

TheRealBK · 12-29-2017, 01:10 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Kmichael@Dec 29 2017, 06:45 AM

The entire point if the discussion is to bring about revision to the old system and make it suitable enough to be a viable venture. I donâ€™t think you understand what the word discussion actually means.

And I don't think you understand what the phrase 'This is a bad idea, stop' means. You've got people from left and right countering your points and proving to you that this is a bad idea, and it's all from guys who have seen agents be an absolute bad idea.

You can try to tell us how beneficial it would be to revise it, but at the end of the day, agents are still a bad idea.

Kmichael · 12-29-2017, 01:16 PM

Quote:Originally posted by TheRealBK@Dec 29 2017, 05:10 PM

And I don't think you understand what the phrase 'This is a bad idea, stop' means. You've got people from left and right countering your points and proving to you that this is a bad idea, and it's all from guys who have seen agents be an absolute bad idea.

You can try to tell us how beneficial it would be to revise it, but at the end of the day, agents are still a bad idea.

Expect youâ€™re shutting down conversation. Iâ€™m not asking to be agreed with I want to see the picture as a whole and have people who enter this thread see that as well. Nobody is â€œprovingâ€ anything because nothing in concrete. Anecdotal experience while valued, is not the end all be all which you seemingly have failed to understand whatâ€™s been very a productive conversation towards a drafted pitch of the idea.

Kmichael · 12-29-2017, 01:17 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Beaver@Dec 29 2017, 04:31 PM

Okay you've sold me, I'm on board with this idea now.

Thereâ€™s regulations of the system that can be put into place to counter this. Itâ€™s just a meme of drama but thereâ€™s no doubt it can be addressed.

Beaver · 12-29-2017, 01:25 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Kmichael@Dec 29 2017, 12:17 PM

Thereâ€™s regulations of the system that can be put into place to counter this. Itâ€™s just a meme of drama but thereâ€™s no doubt it can be addressed.

I live for the drama. Anything that injects more into the SHL has my support.

wikiplaysgames · 12-29-2017, 01:29 PM

Quote:Originally posted by dankoa@Dec 29 2017, 07:54 AM
I will restore Lovell Kunkel Agency to its former glory

ya fuck the wikiplaysgames agency I'm getting in on this

TheRealBK · 12-29-2017, 01:31 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Kmichael@Dec 29 2017, 11:16 AM

Expect youâ€™re shutting down conversation. Iâ€™m not asking to be agreed with I want to see the picture as a whole and have people who enter this thread see that as well. Nobody is â€œprovingâ€ anything because nothing in concrete. Anecdotal experience while valued, is not the end all be all which you seemingly have failed to understand whatâ€™s been very a productive conversation towards a drafted pitch of the idea.

Almost everyone's shutting down your discussion, dude. It's not just me. You're hearing from all angles that agents are a bad idea, and if anyone needs help with contract negotiations, especially for newer members, there's rookie mentors for that.

The concept of player agents for a fake hockey league is unnecessary. There is a much better experience with negotiating your own contract with a team, rather than going to some other member on the site, saying 'get me whatever', then they pursue the biggest contracts, resulting in absolutely ridiculous contracts, like 5-6M for 5 seasons for a soon to be inactive player. Agents can screw teams if they want to because of all this.

Maybe the concept of player agents could work if the league ever went into real money, and gave out real money to dedicated players and such, but quite frankly, that is never going to happen. That would cause one of the biggest shitstorms and would probably make this league dead.

I appreciate you trying to keep discussion with this, but at the end of the day, agents are a bad idea in all aspects of this site.

CFJ · 12-29-2017, 01:35 PM

Don't see why Agents are needed, I'm pretty sure everyone has set of basic negotiation skills in their brains to do it themselves.

Thanks to prettyburn, TML, Carpy, JNH, Jepox, Engi, Karey, Flappy, Skolpadder, Mook, DollarAndADream, Smirnov and Toe for the sigs.

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Crossfit's First Career SHL Goal, 4. Manhattan Rage , Crossfit Jesus 1 (Pedro Sarantez, Nucky Toohoots) at 5:51

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Devitt's First Career SHL Goal, 5. Calgary Dragons , Prince Devitt 1 (Barry Batsbak 21, Mike Izzy 14) at 10:43

Kmichael · 12-29-2017, 01:49 PM

Quote:Originally posted by TheRealBK@Dec 29 2017, 05:31 PM

Almost everyone's shutting down your discussion, dude. It's not just me. You're hearing from all angles that agents are a bad idea, and if anyone needs help with contract negotiations, especially for newer members, there's rookie mentors for that.

The concept of player agents for a fake hockey league is unnecessary. There is a much better experience with negotiating your own contract with a team, rather than going to some other member on the site, saying 'get me whatever', then they pursue the biggest contracts, resulting in absolutely ridiculous contracts, like 5-6M for 5 seasons for a soon to be inactive player. Agents can screw teams if they want to because of all this.

Maybe the concept of player agents could work if the league ever went into real money, and gave out real money to dedicated players and such, but quite frankly, that is never going to happen. That would cause one of the biggest shitstorms and would probably make this league dead.

I appreciate you trying to keep discussion with this, but at the end of the day, agents are a bad idea in all aspects of this site.

Again I really think youâ€™re fear mongering the ideaology that it would be instantly corrupted due to unforeseen circumstances and that despite possible regulations and standards it would result in handcuffing the GMâ€™s which iâ€™m sure you have had personal experience will it being bad in the past but that doesnâ€™t mean it can be revised.

Whikadoodle · 12-29-2017, 04:24 PM

> Been here a month
> Suggests a new idea
> Cool.jpg
> Members who have been here forever explain that it's been done, didn't really work, and give great reasons why it didn't work.
> Bitches about how we've never tried it their way and everyone else's opinion is shit.

Â¯\_(ãƒ„)_/ Â¯

Kmichael · 12-29-2017, 04:26 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Whikadoodle@Dec 29 2017, 08:24 PM
> Been here a month
> Suggests a new idea
> Cool.jpg
> Members who have been here forever explain that it's been done, didn't really work, and give great reasons why it didn't work.
> Bitches about how we've never tried it their way and everyone else's opinion is shit.

Â¯\_(ãƒ„)_/ Â¯

Meme arrows on SHL interesting. Forgot when I was bitching as well. I thought this was a discussion topic not a hopeless shitpost cause someone might think itâ€™s funny.

JumpierPegasus · 12-29-2017, 05:11 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Samee@Dec 29 2017, 09:27 AM
im a fan of something new

psst... it's not new it was an utter failure

people act like we shit on all their new revolutionary ideas. We've been at this almost 40 seasons, we've realized a lot of stuff that just simply doesn't work like people think it will.

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