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Player Inactivity Penalty in Juniors
#16

09-12-2019, 04:14 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: SMJHL GMs who put inactives above actives don't understand the purpose of the league, imo.

Also I don't hate this.

What is the purpose of the league? Seems like you're the one who doesn't understand it...or at least doesn't understand how to achieve it.

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#17

As the least "winning" focused SMJHL GM, I have to say I don't think this is an issue worth a rule change to this degree.

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#18

Agree in theory, but disagree in practice. I’d argue that throwing a 155-200 tpe player into the big minutes right away can hurt a rookie’s development. Nobody wants to see their player go -2 every game and score maybe 15 points.

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#19

09-12-2019, 04:14 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: SMJHL GMs who put inactives above actives don't understand the purpose of the league, imo.

Also I don't hate this.

Soooo what about active junior players who get called up in the SHL? You gonna play your 600 TPE active more than your 1500 TPE inactive? Every SHL team has inactives, why not call up their active prospects to fill those spots instead?

You don’t quite understand how most rookies seem to see this. No one is going to play an inactive more if their TPE is close, but no one is going to play a fresh rookie more than a capped inactive. This is a non issue.

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#20
(This post was last modified: 09-12-2019, 05:02 PM by Rublic.)

09-12-2019, 04:55 PMcpetrella Wrote: Agree in theory, but disagree in practice. I’d argue that throwing a 155-200 tpe player into the big minutes right away can hurt a rookie’s development. Nobody wants to see their player go -2 every game and score maybe 15 points.


I’d rather a chance on the second line with -2’s and 15 points as opposed to the 4 points i achieved on the third line in my rookie season. It’s not like they would be getting first line minutes... it it second line at best usually. I could name a handful of rookies playing 2nd line minutes who have thrived.

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#21

09-12-2019, 05:01 PMRublic Wrote:
09-12-2019, 04:55 PMcpetrella Wrote: Agree in theory, but disagree in practice. I’d argue that throwing a 155-200 tpe player into the big minutes right away can hurt a rookie’s development. Nobody wants to see their player go -2 every game and score maybe 15 points.


I’d rather a chance on the second line with -2’s and 15 points as opposed to the 4 points  i achieved on the third line in my rookie season. It’s not like they would be getting first line minutes... it it second line at best usually.  I could name a handful of rookies playing 2nd line minutes who have thrived.

I dont have time to do the research, but I can almost guarantee you that wvery team has rookies in the top 6 this season except for maybe detroit who drafted like 2 players total and has almost an entirely capped team.

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#22

09-12-2019, 04:14 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: SMJHL GMs who put inactives above actives don't understand the purpose of the league, imo.

Also I don't hate this.

The fact that you and others continue to make statements like this shows that you don’t understand the purpose of the league.

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#23
(This post was last modified: 09-12-2019, 05:16 PM by Sean.)

09-12-2019, 04:57 PMFuzzSHL Wrote:
09-12-2019, 04:14 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: SMJHL GMs who put inactives above actives don't understand the purpose of the league, imo.

Also I don't hate this.

Soooo what about active junior players who get called up in the SHL? You gonna play your 600 TPE active more than your 1500 TPE inactive? Every SHL team has inactives, why not call up their active prospects to fill those spots instead?

You don’t quite understand how most rookies seem to see this. No one is going to play an inactive more if their TPE is close, but no one is going to play a fresh rookie more than a capped inactive. This is a non issue.

The issue is a player can reach the cap in 1 season, leave the league and take up a top-6 F/4 D/1 G spot for 4 more seasons. The point of a developmental league is to give players a chance to play when they're not good enough to play in the real league. Taking up top spots with people who aren't active and will never move up to the SHL is pointless.

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#24

Speaking as an SMJHL GM and Updater, I disagree with this for a few reasons

1. As a GM, I want to play actives as much as I can but I also want my team to do as well as possible. No one wants to spend their rookie season going -30, 10 points and losing 80% of the games. As rookies get more TPE they always will supplant Inactives on the depth chart. People want to win and see their player get better.

2. Who defines when a player is inactive and who's job would it be to comb through profiles to find out when they need to be reduced? I can tell you that it won't be the updaters since we already have enough of a workload on a normal weekend that this would add a massive burden to it.

3. Teams are already limited to 2 IFA's over 200 TPE and 3 between 200 and 165. This would affect such a small proportion of the league that it feels like an unnecessary change.

4. Proposed changes to Capped players in later seasons will already put IFA's at a disadvantage as they would stay at 350 and actives would surpass them.

5. If the stats get downgraded and someone posts the next day then they still have a full week of sims until their stats are changed based on how we handle player updates. No one is going to get a mid-week fix for this and will suddenly cause their players to be much worse and less likely that you might get an IFA to come back.

6. Simon is black magic fuckery and we all know it. There is tons of luck and half the time a 250 TPE player will outplay a capped player for no good reason.

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#25

09-12-2019, 05:20 PMSpartanGibbles Wrote: Speaking as an SMJHL GM and Updater, I disagree with this for a few reasons

1. As a GM, I want to play actives as much as I can but I also want my team to do as well as possible. No one wants to spend their rookie season going -30, 10 points and losing 80% of the games. As rookies get more TPE they always will supplant Inactives on the depth chart. People want to win and see their player get better.

2. Who defines when a player is inactive and who's job would it be to comb through profiles to find out when they need to be reduced? I can tell you that it won't be the updaters since we already have enough of a workload on a normal weekend that this would add a massive burden to it.

3. Teams are already limited to 2 IFA's over 200 TPE and 3 between 200 and 165. This would affect such a small proportion of the league that it feels like an unnecessary change.

4. Proposed changes to Capped players in later seasons will already put IFA's at a disadvantage as they would stay at 350 and actives would surpass them.

5. If the stats get downgraded and someone posts the next day then they still have a full week of sims until their stats are changed based on how we handle player updates. No one is going to get a mid-week fix for this and will suddenly cause their players to be much worse and less likely that you might get an IFA to come back.

6. Simon is black magic fuckery and we all know it. There is tons of luck and half the time a 250 TPE player will outplay a capped player for no good reason.

You made the point that the downgrade won’t effect them and then made the point that downgrading will make them so bad that if they came back they would see it and leave again, you can’t choose both :O

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#26

09-12-2019, 05:15 PMTommySalami Wrote:
09-12-2019, 04:57 PMFuzzSHL Wrote: Soooo what about active junior players who get called up in the SHL? You gonna play your 600 TPE active more than your 1500 TPE inactive? Every SHL team has inactives, why not call up their active prospects to fill those spots instead?

You don’t quite understand how most rookies seem to see this. No one is going to play an inactive more if their TPE is close, but no one is going to play a fresh rookie more than a capped inactive. This is a non issue.

The issue is a player can reach the cap in 1 season, leave the league and take up a top-6 F/4 D/1 G spot for 4 more seasons. The point of a developmental league is to give players a chance to play when they're not good enough to play in the real league. Taking up top spots with people who aren't active and will never move up to the SHL is pointless.

An IA capped player will rarely take up a top spot for that long unless the team they play for sucks. No GM will play an IA higher up the depth chart than an active with similar TPE so as soon as active rookies catch up they displace IA players. Look at Anaheim who started with 250 IA Gordon Bombay on the 2nd line, he was displaced halfway through the season by ~220 TPE rookie Kevin Robinson. The point of a developmental league is to develop players and keep them active, that doesn't necessarily equate to more ice time. So many aspects go in to the development of a player, the biggest ones really have absolutely nothing to do with the sim but even from just a sim POV, more ice time is not always equal to happier rookies. Some rookies would prefer to perform steadily on the 3rd line than to get mauled in a top 6 role, others want to see their team win and don't mind sacrificing ice time to achieve it. It really varies from player to player, development is not as simple as "yay ice time" so I really don't understand this fixation from people who don't even pay attention to the SMJHL to constantly patronize J GMs and try to tell them who they should and shouldn't give ice time to. We care about player development more than most people on the site, it's why we have the job that we have and we always work hard to improve our ability to develop contributing members to the site. It's a much bigger picture to look at then just ice time and it's tiring to always have to deal with members who constantly yell "muhhh ice time" like they think they have player development all figured out.

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#27

09-12-2019, 05:26 PMKeygan Wrote:
09-12-2019, 05:20 PMSpartanGibbles Wrote: Speaking as an SMJHL GM and Updater, I disagree with this for a few reasons

1. As a GM, I want to play actives as much as I can but I also want my team to do as well as possible. No one wants to spend their rookie season going -30, 10 points and losing 80% of the games. As rookies get more TPE they always will supplant Inactives on the depth chart. People want to win and see their player get better.

2. Who defines when a player is inactive and who's job would it be to comb through profiles to find out when they need to be reduced? I can tell you that it won't be the updaters since we already have enough of a workload on a normal weekend that this would add a massive burden to it.

3. Teams are already limited to 2 IFA's over 200 TPE and 3 between 200 and 165. This would affect such a small proportion of the league that it feels like an unnecessary change.

4. Proposed changes to Capped players in later seasons will already put IFA's at a disadvantage as they would stay at 350 and actives would surpass them.

5. If the stats get downgraded and someone posts the next day then they still have a full week of sims until their stats are changed based on how we handle player updates. No one is going to get a mid-week fix for this and will suddenly cause their players to be much worse and less likely that you might get an IFA to come back.

6. Simon is black magic fuckery and we all know it. There is tons of luck and half the time a 250 TPE player will outplay a capped player for no good reason.

You made the point that the downgrade won’t effect them and then made the point that downgrading will make them so bad that if they came back they would see it and leave again, you can’t choose both :O

My point on them coming back is that their season has already been negatively affected by not posting within an arbitrary guideline that they can't immediately fix. This would make their player worse on a statistical level and could make them view the season as a lost cause. Why return if your player is going to be worse for roughly 10-15 games?

The downgrade may or may not affect their performance. That is up to Simon's whims. We can try and predict how a stat change will change actual performance but that depends more on lines, teammates, and the strength of the team in general.

I'm trying to look at this proposal from multiple angles if possible since it would directly affect more than 1 job that I hold on this site.

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#28
(This post was last modified: 09-12-2019, 05:39 PM by ArGarBarGar.)

09-12-2019, 04:57 PMFuzzSHL Wrote:
09-12-2019, 04:14 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: SMJHL GMs who put inactives above actives don't understand the purpose of the league, imo.

Also I don't hate this.

Soooo what about active junior players who get called up in the SHL? You gonna play your 600 TPE active more than your 1500 TPE inactive? Every SHL team has inactives, why not call up their active prospects to fill those spots instead?

Seems like you purposefully misunderstood that I was speaking to the league in question, as in the SMJHL. So comparisons to the SHL are pointless.

09-12-2019, 05:14 PMJNH Wrote:
09-12-2019, 04:14 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: SMJHL GMs who put inactives above actives don't understand the purpose of the league, imo.

Also I don't hate this.

The fact that you and others continue to make statements like this shows that you don’t understand the purpose of the league.

That doesn't follow.

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#29

09-12-2019, 04:52 PMBDonini Wrote:
09-12-2019, 04:14 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: SMJHL GMs who put inactives above actives don't understand the purpose of the league, imo.

Also I don't hate this.

What is the purpose of the league? Seems like you're the one who doesn't understand it...or at least doesn't understand how to achieve it.

Cultivating and developing new members into potentially active and important pieces of the community and giving old members something to follow and enjoy while they wait for their time to get back into the SHL. Winning a Four-Star cup is fun and a nice prize at the end, but it is not the be all end all and shouldn't be for the long-term health of the league.

Perhaps my statement was a bit to generalizing, but in most cases actives should be given precedent to where this type of a rule isn't necessary.

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#30

09-12-2019, 05:26 PMKeygan Wrote:
09-12-2019, 05:20 PMSpartanGibbles Wrote: Speaking as an SMJHL GM and Updater, I disagree with this for a few reasons

1. As a GM, I want to play actives as much as I can but I also want my team to do as well as possible. No one wants to spend their rookie season going -30, 10 points and losing 80% of the games. As rookies get more TPE they always will supplant Inactives on the depth chart. People want to win and see their player get better.

2. Who defines when a player is inactive and who's job would it be to comb through profiles to find out when they need to be reduced? I can tell you that it won't be the updaters since we already have enough of a workload on a normal weekend that this would add a massive burden to it.

3. Teams are already limited to 2 IFA's over 200 TPE and 3 between 200 and 165. This would affect such a small proportion of the league that it feels like an unnecessary change.

4. Proposed changes to Capped players in later seasons will already put IFA's at a disadvantage as they would stay at 350 and actives would surpass them.

5. If the stats get downgraded and someone posts the next day then they still have a full week of sims until their stats are changed based on how we handle player updates. No one is going to get a mid-week fix for this and will suddenly cause their players to be much worse and less likely that you might get an IFA to come back.

6. Simon is black magic fuckery and we all know it. There is tons of luck and half the time a 250 TPE player will outplay a capped player for no good reason.

You made the point that the downgrade won’t effect them and then made the point that downgrading will make them so bad that if they came back they would see it and leave again, you can’t choose both :O

Uhh... what? I don't see what you're saying.



To the proposal itself, I like the idea a lot, but in practice I wouldn't suggest it.

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