09-12-2019, 04:52 PMBDonini Wrote: What is the purpose of the league? Seems like you're the one who doesn't understand it...or at least doesn't understand how to achieve it.
Cultivating and developing new members into potentially active and important pieces of the community and giving old members something to follow and enjoy while they wait for their time to get back into the SHL. Winning a Four-Star cup is fun and a nice prize at the end, but it is not the be all end all and shouldn't be for the long-term health of the league.
Perhaps my statement was a bit to generalizing, but in most cases actives should be given precedent to where this type of a rule isn't necessary.
I think as an SMJHL GM that we try to give preference to actives in most cases outside of starting a season with a 350 capped player versus a sub 200 player. That active will pass them on the depth chart if they stay active and it gives them something to work towards outside of just gaining TPE. GM's don't want to play capped IFA's at all in the end, but we still have to fill out a roster and not every season is going to have enough active players to make a team competitive. No one likes losing and having some successes is a vital part of making the new members like the league.
We are always trying to develop new members into great members of the community but outside of a few people, A lot of the old members ignore the J like it is a disease ridden plague rat and try to get out of it as fast as they can. In over 75% the talks I have had with recreates pre-draft their goal includes winning the 4 star before they are called up. Until more people start caring about the J outside of the 1-5 seasons their player spends in it; It is hard to take their opinions seriously as someone who puts a lot into trying to make the SMJHL a great place.
09-12-2019, 06:04 PM(This post was last modified: 09-12-2019, 06:05 PM by Sean.)
09-12-2019, 05:52 PMSpartanGibbles Wrote:
09-12-2019, 05:42 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Cultivating and developing new members into potentially active and important pieces of the community and giving old members something to follow and enjoy while they wait for their time to get back into the SHL. Winning a Four-Star cup is fun and a nice prize at the end, but it is not the be all end all and shouldn't be for the long-term health of the league.
Perhaps my statement was a bit to generalizing, but in most cases actives should be given precedent to where this type of a rule isn't necessary.
I think as an SMJHL GM that we try to give preference to actives in most cases outside of starting a season with a 350 capped player versus a sub 200 player. That active will pass them on the depth chart if they stay active and it gives them something to work towards outside of just gaining TPE. GM's don't want to play capped IFA's at all in the end, but we still have to fill out a roster and not every season is going to have enough active players to make a team competitive. No one likes losing and having some successes is a vital part of making the new members like the league.
We are always trying to develop new members into great members of the community but outside of a few people, A lot of the old members ignore the J like it is a disease ridden plague rat and try to get out of it as fast as they can. In over 75% the talks I have had with recreates pre-draft their goal includes winning the 4 star before they are called up. Until more people start caring about the J outside of the 1-5 seasons their player spends in it; It is hard to take their opinions seriously as someone who puts a lot into trying to make the SMJHL a great place.
If the rule is applied equally to all teams then this would only help teams with more active players become more competitive relative to teams with less active players. That would mean more members are winning and more members are happy with the site.
It would lower overall competition making lower TPE active players more competitive and capped active players more valuable.
If GMs truly don't want to play inactives they should be all over this rule.
09-12-2019, 05:26 PMKeygan Wrote: You made the point that the downgrade won’t effect them and then made the point that downgrading will make them so bad that if they came back they would see it and leave again, you can’t choose both :O
My point on them coming back is that their season has already been negatively affected by not posting within an arbitrary guideline that they can't immediately fix. This would make their player worse on a statistical level and could make them view the season as a lost cause. Why return if your player is going to be worse for roughly 10-15 games?
The downgrade may or may not affect their performance. That is up to Simon's whims. We can try and predict how a stat change will change actual performance but that depends more on lines, teammates, and the strength of the team in general.
I'm trying to look at this proposal from multiple angles if possible since it would directly affect more than 1 job that I hold on this site.
Inactivity isn’t an arbitrary amount, it’s pretty clearly defined: one month. Speaking as a former SMJHL GM, I think the idea on a whole is a good one that would encourage SMJHL GMs to develop their players further and grow the league like they’re expected to
Alex Winters (retired)
Matej Winters (retired)
Dominik Winters S45 Jesster Trophy Winner Challenge Cup Winning Goal Club: S52
09-12-2019, 06:59 PM(This post was last modified: 09-12-2019, 06:59 PM by charlieconway.)
I see a lot of great discussion about this, and I'm seeing some suggested downsides that I admit I hadn't really considered before. And I think as always (and has been noted here in this thread), you always have to keep in mind the extra work any suggested idea would create, especially for updaters who have a lot on their plate already.
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Just as a test for my own sake, I wanted to see what a person's TPE would look like if this kind of penalty was applied, and I figured I might as well post the workings here. Using the same example as in the initial post:
09-12-2019, 04:52 PMBDonini Wrote: What is the purpose of the league? Seems like you're the one who doesn't understand it...or at least doesn't understand how to achieve it.
Cultivating and developing new members into potentially active and important pieces of the community and giving old members something to follow and enjoy while they wait for their time to get back into the SHL. Winning a Four-Star cup is fun and a nice prize at the end, but it is not the be all end all and shouldn't be for the long-term health of the league.
Perhaps my statement was a bit to generalizing, but in most cases actives should be given precedent to where this type of a rule isn't necessary.
As long as there's a championship, GMs will do whatever is necessary to win. SMJHL head office has to either incentivize GMs to make decisions that are best for the league, or restrict them from making decisions that are bad for the league.
Pretending GMs will magically stop being competitive and stop angle shooting the rulebook for every possible edge is a fairy tale. It will always happen, as long as there's a championship to be won.
It's only part of the GMs job to foster a good locker room relationship. They have to manage their picks and lines, their budget (hopefully segi got this done), and field a competitive team. It's HO's job to make sure that the process and results of the GMs work is also beneficial to the players.
That's why threads like this are important. The idea isn't always even the important part. The important bit is that HO benefits from users identifying problems, concerns, deficiencies, and detractions from their experience. And the fix might not look even close to the proposal, but it starts the conversation.
That's why I get a little irritated when people are so dismissive in these kinds of threads. Charlie had a real concern big enough that they proposed an idea to fix it. Now HO can take it and all this discussion back to start planning.
09-12-2019, 06:59 PMcharlieconway Wrote: I see a lot of great discussion about this, and I'm seeing some suggested downsides that I admit I hadn't really considered before. And I think as always (and has been noted here in this thread), you always have to keep in mind the extra work any suggested idea would create, especially for updaters who have a lot on their plate already.
------
Just as a test for my own sake, I wanted to see what a person's TPE would look like if this kind of penalty was applied, and I figured I might as well post the workings here. Using the same example as in the initial post:
Obviously that number is gonna differ depending on where the stats are allocated, but this works as a test case.
I'm always glad to see new ideas suggested, even if I don't personally agree with them. We have to keep looking at different ideas if we ever want to improve.
I think with this idea the only way it could be possible to implement would be to make it like regression where it takes away a set amount of TPE from the build. Taking away attribute points flatly would cause the builds with obvious strengths to be much worse than someone who just even upgrades the 8 attributes at a lower level.
09-12-2019, 05:42 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Cultivating and developing new members into potentially active and important pieces of the community and giving old members something to follow and enjoy while they wait for their time to get back into the SHL. Winning a Four-Star cup is fun and a nice prize at the end, but it is not the be all end all and shouldn't be for the long-term health of the league.
Perhaps my statement was a bit to generalizing, but in most cases actives should be given precedent to where this type of a rule isn't necessary.
As long as there's a championship, GMs will do whatever is necessary to win. SMJHL head office has to either incentivize GMs to make decisions that are best for the league, or restrict them from making decisions that are bad for the league.
Pretending GMs will magically stop being competitive and stop angle shooting the rulebook for every possible edge is a fairy tale. It will always happen, as long as there's a championship to be won.
It's only part of the GMs job to foster a good locker room relationship. They have to manage their picks and lines, their budget (hopefully segi got this done), and field a competitive team. It's HO's job to make sure that the process and results of the GMs work is also beneficial to the players.
That's why threads like this are important. The idea isn't always even the important part. The important bit is that HO benefits from users identifying problems, concerns, deficiencies, and detractions from their experience. And the fix might not look even close to the proposal, but it starts the conversation.
That's why I get a little irritated when people are so dismissive in these kinds of threads. Charlie had a real concern big enough that they proposed an idea to fix it. Now HO can take it and all this discussion back to start planning.
09-12-2019, 07:15 PMgrok Wrote: As long as there's a championship, GMs will do whatever is necessary to win. SMJHL head office has to either incentivize GMs to make decisions that are best for the league, or restrict them from making decisions that are bad for the league.
Pretending GMs will magically stop being competitive and stop angle shooting the rulebook for every possible edge is a fairy tale. It will always happen, as long as there's a championship to be won.
It's only part of the GMs job to foster a good locker room relationship. They have to manage their picks and lines, their budget (hopefully segi got this done), and field a competitive team. It's HO's job to make sure that the process and results of the GMs work is also beneficial to the players.
That's why threads like this are important. The idea isn't always even the important part. The important bit is that HO benefits from users identifying problems, concerns, deficiencies, and detractions from their experience. And the fix might not look even close to the proposal, but it starts the conversation.
That's why I get a little irritated when people are so dismissive in these kinds of threads. Charlie had a real concern big enough that they proposed an idea to fix it. Now HO can take it and all this discussion back to start planning.
But hey what do I know, I was a fuckin failure
Grok you're not a failure, you're my goddamn hero
Seconded
Alex Winters (retired)
Matej Winters (retired)
Dominik Winters S45 Jesster Trophy Winner Challenge Cup Winning Goal Club: S52
I see the spirit of this rule proposal as being: a player who is active, updating, and growing on the site should be a better choice in the sim than someone who isn't active, isn't updating, and has essentially stopped caring/given up.
In real life, if you don't show up to practice and don't put in the work, you aren't gonna perform as well (unless you're Allen Iverson).
I don't think the focus should be on policing ice time or things like that. GMs should be able to play who they want and they should be focused on icing a competitive team at either level. It's just nice if the best options to compete are active players and not inactive players.
I also think this would help keep new players active, because it really wouldn't take that long for them to blossom into top six players in the SMJHL with this system in place.
There is a balance, by the way. Speaking only for myself, but I was up front with Colorado that I wanted to play where I belonged and give the team the best chance to win. I am 100 percent happy with this season and Hariken's development
keep in mind though that you get TPE for SMJHL Milestones, and even if you're a weaker or newer player, it's possible for you to hit more milestones the more ice time you have, earning you more TPE as a result. Ice time isn't just for vanity's sake. Narrowing the TPE gap by penalizing inactives will also help more active players hit more of these milestones as well, even if they aren't playing top six minutes all season.
Teams can only ice two inactives over 200 tpe. Most decent earners pass that mark like two weeks into the season. Personally I see this as a non issue and if your GM isn't playing you as much as you'd like either speak to them or ask for a trade.
Credit to Ml002, King, Wasty, Carpy, Bruins10, Rum_Ham, Turd Ferguson, Ragnar and Enigmatic for the sigs.
The activity of the top 30 skaters (by points) and the top-5 goalies (by SV%) of the season. For what it's worth, there weren't as many IAs here as I recalled.
I don't know if this is going to sway anyone's opinion one way or another, but I figure it can only help to have as much info as possible.
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09-12-2019, 08:34 PMAcsolap Wrote: Teams can only ice two inactives over 200 tpe. Most decent earners pass that mark like two weeks into the season. Personally I see this as a non issue and if your GM isn't playing you as much as you'd like either speak to them or ask for a trade.
No idea if this is aimed at me or not, but in case it is, I was probably played more than I expected this past season. It's not about that.
The activity of the top 30 skaters (by points) and the top-5 goalies (by SV%) of the season. For what it's worth, there weren't as many IAs here as I recalled.
I don't know if this is going to sway anyone's opinion one way or another, but I figure it can only help to have as much info as possible.
---
09-12-2019, 08:34 PMAcsolap Wrote: Teams can only ice two inactives over 200 tpe. Most decent earners pass that mark like two weeks into the season. Personally I see this as a non issue and if your GM isn't playing you as much as you'd like either speak to them or ask for a trade.
No idea if this is aimed at me or not, but in case it is, I was probably played more than I expected this past season. It's not about that.
Yeah I mean you look at that and 3 of the Top 6 in points and nearly 4 out of the top 5 goalies are inactive, Its not unreasonable to want all of those spots to be filled with active
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