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spooked · 04-04-2022, 04:09 PM

04-04-2022, 04:03 PMsve7en Wrote:
04-04-2022, 03:56 PMspooked Wrote: I think it would be hard to name specific items, but the general attitude I remember was challenging to get anything between SHL to SMJHL HO done if it had any negatives to it for the J. The draft being so delayed is the obvious one cause it came up multiple times, but it is possible that would work as an example. In my opinion there isn't really a need to have the SMJHL Draft so far back, I think it would actually be better from a league perspective to draft the rookies FIRST, and then do the SHL draft... but the SMJHL pushed really hard to make sure the J GMs know the send downs before they draft for competition reasons I assume. Which is funny to me cause a GM could still change their roster after that date if they wanted to, it's not frozen I don't think anywhere in the rules last I looked.

I was the largest voice for this afaik, but yeah I'd kind of like to know what my team needs are before I draft. It's got nothing to do with competition at all. I don't want to end up in a spot where I make a move and leave Carolina short on actives if I don't have to, or worse have too many players when I could trade up or into the future. It's also not like that was the only option, I mentioned the drafts could be the same weekend if FA was just moved up and took place after the offseason post and before the SHL draft.

Also "I think it would actually be better from a league perspective to draft the rookies FIRST, and then do the SHL draft..." but like, why? I can't think of anything off the top of my head where the J draft affects the SHL's.

The recruitment could happen during the playoffs, so new players could see some/more streams live in the playoffs, then they would get drafted by their J clubs, then they could choose to watch the SHL draft itself, maybe get to know some of the SHL stuff through that, see some of their teammates get drafted etc. I think it would flow a little bit better, but then the offseason would need to be shorter probably so its not deadzone, but I guess you would be able to do some WJC stuff or something with them in the gap too.

From a member perspective they would see more of the site when they join instead of basically missing it all.

EDIT:

The biggest counter argument to J GMs knowing call ups, is that they can be changed later anyways. They could call someone up later and skewer your roster without warning really, so its like helpful in a sense, but also you could get most of their plans through discussion if you had specific players in mind. If it's a development league you don't need to be on the knifes edge with rosters and trades, just be conservative to avoid worst case scenario, and talk to people to get as much info as possible.

***Sburbine*** · 04-04-2022, 04:11 PM

04-04-2022, 03:56 PMHallsy Wrote:
04-04-2022, 03:53 PMSburbine Wrote: If it makes you feel any better NL is about to lose 8 players in the offseason. SHL teams don't go through anything even remotely similar. If NL can still dominate next season then I'll agree with you. The main issue is Hamilton is able to do it with middling TPE (see last season) while NL has the highest TPE in the J.

we really didn't dominate last season. Most tests I ran showed BAP smoking us. there is still an RNG element to FHM.

Not a great look coming off of winning the cup with the 11th highest TPE in the league (in the SHL no less where it's much harder to win) and saying "sorry about the rng bro"

ACapitalChicago · 04-04-2022, 04:14 PM

04-04-2022, 03:56 PMspooked Wrote:
04-04-2022, 02:46 PMACapitalChicago Wrote: I strongly disagree. The J very much still is a development league, as we have our set goals of development and retainment. Just because we may not develop directly into the SHL does not mean these players are no longer developing at all, and instead speaks to the overall and frequently aforementioned issue that players outright don't want to leave the J. I fail to see how our autonomy and ability to be self-sufficient instead of relying on a different League's head office is a fault, when I instead find our current professional courtesies and conversations helpful and beneficial to all involved. Why should SMJHL HO not have oversight of the SMJHL? Not once, for as far as I've been in SMJHL HO, "not wanted to compromise our own competitiveness to accommodate development style changes" to paraphrase your own words, and I'd be interested in hearing how we've done so in the past. The last update scale changes were not made with the SMJHL's parity or health in mind beyond hoping to result in more callups, which already strongarms our ability to handle competitive balance.

I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but this feels like a slap in the face to call us inflexible when we have done nothing but rewrite the rulebook and restructure our interior departments multiple times over multiple seasons so as to better accommodate the needs of the J.

Yeah, I didn't mean it that way. The "not being a development league anymore" was along the lines of "The J (and it's HO/Staff) is doing so well at making their product good it is actually compromising the SHL itself". It isn't much of a developmental league because there is no incentive to actual move on from it for some/most people. The GM jobs are more approachable, the player aspect is easier/more fun (less grind), etc.

The product the J can put out is easier to make superior because of how quick & approachable it can be, it pulls a lot of weight in helping the league be more engaging more quickly. Now you have some issues to face too, but the inherent advantage of only needing a couple months to be "good", instead of a year or more, makes it very difficult for the SHL to actually compete quickly/incentivize callups. The spread in TPE in the SHL also makes it much harder... These are not really problems that can be solved, just the nature of the J being outright advantaged in those areas. There needs to be more incentive to be called up, but I also don't think the SHL alone can make those changes since early-career SHL players are almost impossible to improve beyond what has already been done barring just kneecapping high tpe players outright or something along those lines.

I think it would be hard to name specific items, but the general attitude I remember was challenging to get anything between SHL to SMJHL HO done if it had any negatives to it for the J. The draft being so delayed is the obvious one cause it came up multiple times, but it is possible that would work as an example. In my opinion there isn't really a need to have the SMJHL Draft so far back, I think it would actually be better from a league perspective to draft the rookies FIRST, and then do the SHL draft... but the SMJHL pushed really hard to make sure the J GMs know the send downs before they draft for competition reasons I assume. Which is funny to me cause a GM could still change their roster after that date if they wanted to, it's not frozen I don't think anywhere in the rules last I looked.

The update scale being done that way was probably within the realm of what I am speaking to as being desirable for the site long term. Things that impact the SHL AND SMJHL should be decided by SHL HO and the Commish basically because it involves the main league, but with input from the SMJHL HO to avoid easily avoidable issues. Honestly speaking, I think the league would be a lot better if the two HO's were basically merged and managed the league from the top down without the division.

I will concede that yes, the J is getting to a point where we're having this legitimate discussion that some people would rather be in the J than the SHL. In that regard, sure you can have a valid argument that the J is less about direct development instead of passive support resulting in more activity construed as development and that would be a fair point. However there is the existence of the inherent issue of there being only so much we can do to promote moving up to the SHL when people view it so undesirably, for whatever reasons they have. Maybe they don't want to get crushed by higher TPE players, maybe they don't want to leave a group they love, maybe they want a chance to flex their muscles, maybe they think there's more parity in the J, whatever it may be these are valid concerns. However this is also circling back to where some of the conversation started, and is bordering on redundancy. You do have a good point about the impossibility of balancing newer users against established ones in regard to TPE disparities, as we can't have our cake of letting good players be good and eat it too in making sure they're not too much better than those without that TPE.

The issue with the attitude was that SMJHL HO felt a sincere lack of respect or understanding in regards to how our systems operate or how decisions made would affect us. Numerous times decisions were made that appeared to be done so without a care as to how they would change things in the J, such as the tendies change, the update scale change, drafted-but-not-signed players change that was almost completely overruled unknowingly the season after we established it, and many others. On the specific topic of the drafts, if you really want to consider J GMs not wanting to draft prior to SHL GMs as based in competition, feel free, but that feels disingenuous at the least. J GMs don't want to draft after the SHL GMs because of competition reasons, they do it so as to have as best a wholistic approach to their team as possible to ensure the best possible experience for their team. Having a team only comprised of forwards for example compromises that, and risks our overarching goal of retainment. Yes, GMs can still change their roster, but that's besides the point and doesn't address the main focus here.

Yes the intent behind the update scale changes were admirable, but that doesn't change that the impact and breadth of said changes were not fully examined in multiple lenses. I understand the perception that there's no interaction between SMJHL HO & SHL HO, but things have since changed. Without throwing people under the bus, I would point primarily to a breakdown in communications between the primary point people that were supposed to facilitate cooperation between the HOs that caused that original perception. However, since then, both myself and Finn have been more active in each other's HO to provide context and insight when necessary. In addition, we've also created an All HO joint server for topics that affect both leagues so as to ease communication between us. I understand the perception may not have been favorable, but that is far from the reality currently. Honestly speaking as well, I think merging the groups is a terrible idea that would result in a loss of specialization and needless bloat that'll result in far more harm than good.

S66 Damian Littleton

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***sve7en*** · 04-04-2022, 04:14 PM

04-04-2022, 04:09 PMspooked Wrote:
04-04-2022, 04:03 PMsve7en Wrote: I was the largest voice for this afaik, but yeah I'd kind of like to know what my team needs are before I draft. It's got nothing to do with competition at all. I don't want to end up in a spot where I make a move and leave Carolina short on actives if I don't have to, or worse have too many players when I could trade up or into the future. It's also not like that was the only option, I mentioned the drafts could be the same weekend if FA was just moved up and took place after the offseason post and before the SHL draft.

Also "I think it would actually be better from a league perspective to draft the rookies FIRST, and then do the SHL draft..." but like, why? I can't think of anything off the top of my head where the J draft affects the SHL's.

The recruitment could happen during the playoffs, so new players could see some streams live in the playoffs, then they would get drafted by their J clubs, then they could choose to watch the SHL draft itself, maybe get to know some of the SHL stuff through that, see some of their teammates get drafted etc. I think it would flow a little bit better, but then the offseason would need to be shorter probably so its not deadzone, but I guess you would be able to do some WJC stuff or something with them in the gap too.

From a member perspective they would see more of the site when they join instead of basically missing it all.

Getting recruitment done immediately into a turnaround to see their player on the ice days later has a similar engagement focus, one that is actually about them and their player. Beyond that, while WJC can fill that role (it did for me), I don't expect that to be everyone's cup of tea.

Samsung virtual assistant · 04-04-2022, 04:18 PM

04-04-2022, 04:11 PMSburbine Wrote:
04-04-2022, 03:56 PMHallsy Wrote: we really didn't dominate last season. Most tests I ran showed BAP smoking us. there is still an RNG element to FHM.
Not a great look coming off of winning the cup with the 11th highest TPE in the league (in the SHL no less where it's much harder to win) and saying "sorry about the rng bro"

Hamilton moment

***CampinKiller*** · 04-04-2022, 04:26 PM

04-04-2022, 04:11 PMSburbine Wrote:
04-04-2022, 03:56 PMHallsy Wrote: we really didn't dominate last season. Most tests I ran showed BAP smoking us. there is still an RNG element to FHM.
Not a great look coming off of winning the cup with the 11th highest TPE in the league (in the SHL no less where it's much harder to win) and saying "sorry about the rng bro"

They also "don't test" according to their coGM and apparently lost the vast majority of their tests vs LAP, while Fuzz had maybe a 30% success rate, so.

spooked · 04-04-2022, 04:27 PM

04-04-2022, 04:14 PMACapitalChicago Wrote:
04-04-2022, 03:56 PMspooked Wrote: Yeah, I didn't mean it that way. The "not being a development league anymore" was along the lines of "The J (and it's HO/Staff) is doing so well at making their product good it is actually compromising the SHL itself". It isn't much of a developmental league because there is no incentive to actual move on from it for some/most people. The GM jobs are more approachable, the player aspect is easier/more fun (less grind), etc.

The product the J can put out is easier to make superior because of how quick & approachable it can be, it pulls a lot of weight in helping the league be more engaging more quickly. Now you have some issues to face too, but the inherent advantage of only needing a couple months to be "good", instead of a year or more, makes it very difficult for the SHL to actually compete quickly/incentivize callups. The spread in TPE in the SHL also makes it much harder... These are not really problems that can be solved, just the nature of the J being outright advantaged in those areas. There needs to be more incentive to be called up, but I also don't think the SHL alone can make those changes since early-career SHL players are almost impossible to improve beyond what has already been done barring just kneecapping high tpe players outright or something along those lines.

I think it would be hard to name specific items, but the general attitude I remember was challenging to get anything between SHL to SMJHL HO done if it had any negatives to it for the J. The draft being so delayed is the obvious one cause it came up multiple times, but it is possible that would work as an example. In my opinion there isn't really a need to have the SMJHL Draft so far back, I think it would actually be better from a league perspective to draft the rookies FIRST, and then do the SHL draft... but the SMJHL pushed really hard to make sure the J GMs know the send downs before they draft for competition reasons I assume. Which is funny to me cause a GM could still change their roster after that date if they wanted to, it's not frozen I don't think anywhere in the rules last I looked.

The update scale being done that way was probably within the realm of what I am speaking to as being desirable for the site long term. Things that impact the SHL AND SMJHL should be decided by SHL HO and the Commish basically because it involves the main league, but with input from the SMJHL HO to avoid easily avoidable issues. Honestly speaking, I think the league would be a lot better if the two HO's were basically merged and managed the league from the top down without the division.

I will concede that yes, the J is getting to a point where we're having this legitimate discussion that some people would rather be in the J than the SHL. In that regard, sure you can have a valid argument that the J is less about direct development instead of passive support resulting in more activity construed as development and that would be a fair point. However there is the existence of the inherent issue of there being only so much we can do to promote moving up to the SHL when people view it so undesirably, for whatever reasons they have. Maybe they don't want to get crushed by higher TPE players, maybe they don't want to leave a group they love, maybe they want a chance to flex their muscles, maybe they think there's more parity in the J, whatever it may be these are valid concerns. However this is also circling back to where some of the conversation started, and is bordering on redundancy. You do have a good point about the impossibility of balancing newer users against established ones in regard to TPE disparities, as we can't have our cake of letting good players be good and eat it too in making sure they're not too much better than those without that TPE.

The issue with the attitude was that SMJHL HO felt a sincere lack of respect or understanding in regards to how our systems operate or how decisions made would affect us. Numerous times decisions were made that appeared to be done so without a care as to how they would change things in the J, such as the tendies change, the update scale change, drafted-but-not-signed players change that was almost completely overruled unknowingly the season after we established it, and many others. On the specific topic of the drafts, if you really want to consider J GMs not wanting to draft prior to SHL GMs as based in competition, feel free, but that feels disingenuous at the least. J GMs don't want to draft after the SHL GMs because of competition reasons, they do it so as to have as best a wholistic approach to their team as possible to ensure the best possible experience for their team. Having a team only comprised of forwards for example compromises that, and risks our overarching goal of retainment. Yes, GMs can still change their roster, but that's besides the point and doesn't address the main focus here.

Yes the intent behind the update scale changes were admirable, but that doesn't change that the impact and breadth of said changes were not fully examined in multiple lenses. I understand the perception that there's no interaction between SMJHL HO & SHL HO, but things have since changed. Without throwing people under the bus, I would point primarily to a breakdown in communications between the primary point people that were supposed to facilitate cooperation between the HOs that caused that original perception. However, since then, both myself and Finn have been more active in each other's HO to provide context and insight when necessary. In addition, we've also created an All HO joint server for topics that affect both leagues so as to ease communication between us. I understand the perception may not have been favorable, but that is far from the reality currently. Honestly speaking as well, I think merging the groups is a terrible idea that would result in a loss of specialization and needless bloat that'll result in far more harm than good.

I'm not going to refute anything you said, I did say from what my experience was which is mainly limited to a few seasons ago, so fair enough. I am happy to hear more communication is happening, I think the main point I was trying to get to with the "merging comment" was that rather than the focus being on the SMJHL or SHL for the two groups, the focus really needs to be at the site-level at this point. The specialization will still be needed for day-to-day activities, but when it comes to initiatives or rule changes, or any other systems, I think the teams should work much much closer together than I had ever seen in my iteration of HO. It never felt like the two HOs were pushing in the same direction when I was in it, so I hope that can be the case cause without the J being fun the SHL will suffer, but if the SHL cannot be fun then the J won't keep up growth either cause not everyone is down for it either.

spooked · 04-04-2022, 04:29 PM

04-04-2022, 04:14 PMsve7en Wrote:
04-04-2022, 04:09 PMspooked Wrote: The recruitment could happen during the playoffs, so new players could see some streams live in the playoffs, then they would get drafted by their J clubs, then they could choose to watch the SHL draft itself, maybe get to know some of the SHL stuff through that, see some of their teammates get drafted etc. I think it would flow a little bit better, but then the offseason would need to be shorter probably so its not deadzone, but I guess you would be able to do some WJC stuff or something with them in the gap too.

From a member perspective they would see more of the site when they join instead of basically missing it all.

Getting recruitment done immediately into a turnaround to see their player on the ice days later has a similar engagement focus, one that is actually about them and their player. Beyond that, while WJC can fill that role (it did for me), I don't expect that to be everyone's cup of tea.

Yeah, I don't think there is a perfect method for everyone, but the WJC or rookie tournaments felt like a good intro for me as well, I just personally think it would be better to have more stuff happen after new players join so they can experience it up front like a sales pitch and maybe foster some more SHL familiarity immediately, as opposed to having basically nothing SHL-related happen for them after they join until its time for them to be drafted. Would be nice to see them experience the playoffs a bit, go through an SHL draft to see the teams, etc.

***boom*** · 04-04-2022, 04:31 PM

04-04-2022, 03:20 PMGooney Wrote:
04-04-2022, 03:14 PMsköldpaddor Wrote: sorry let me rephrase.

j parity conversation is a different conversation than SHL parity conversation

hope this helps

i don’t know the league well enough to discuss parity issue but i don’t think you do either frankly. everything you listed could be applied to either league. good gms do good, which both hamilton and newfoundland clearly have.

imagine telling someone who’s a J GM and SHL HO they don’t know what they’re doing

ACapitalChicago · 04-04-2022, 04:32 PM

04-04-2022, 04:27 PMspooked Wrote:
04-04-2022, 04:14 PMACapitalChicago Wrote: I will concede that yes, the J is getting to a point where we're having this legitimate discussion that some people would rather be in the J than the SHL. In that regard, sure you can have a valid argument that the J is less about direct development instead of passive support resulting in more activity construed as development and that would be a fair point. However there is the existence of the inherent issue of there being only so much we can do to promote moving up to the SHL when people view it so undesirably, for whatever reasons they have. Maybe they don't want to get crushed by higher TPE players, maybe they don't want to leave a group they love, maybe they want a chance to flex their muscles, maybe they think there's more parity in the J, whatever it may be these are valid concerns. However this is also circling back to where some of the conversation started, and is bordering on redundancy. You do have a good point about the impossibility of balancing newer users against established ones in regard to TPE disparities, as we can't have our cake of letting good players be good and eat it too in making sure they're not too much better than those without that TPE.

The issue with the attitude was that SMJHL HO felt a sincere lack of respect or understanding in regards to how our systems operate or how decisions made would affect us. Numerous times decisions were made that appeared to be done so without a care as to how they would change things in the J, such as the tendies change, the update scale change, drafted-but-not-signed players change that was almost completely overruled unknowingly the season after we established it, and many others. On the specific topic of the drafts, if you really want to consider J GMs not wanting to draft prior to SHL GMs as based in competition, feel free, but that feels disingenuous at the least. J GMs don't want to draft after the SHL GMs because of competition reasons, they do it so as to have as best a wholistic approach to their team as possible to ensure the best possible experience for their team. Having a team only comprised of forwards for example compromises that, and risks our overarching goal of retainment. Yes, GMs can still change their roster, but that's besides the point and doesn't address the main focus here.

Yes the intent behind the update scale changes were admirable, but that doesn't change that the impact and breadth of said changes were not fully examined in multiple lenses. I understand the perception that there's no interaction between SMJHL HO & SHL HO, but things have since changed. Without throwing people under the bus, I would point primarily to a breakdown in communications between the primary point people that were supposed to facilitate cooperation between the HOs that caused that original perception. However, since then, both myself and Finn have been more active in each other's HO to provide context and insight when necessary. In addition, we've also created an All HO joint server for topics that affect both leagues so as to ease communication between us. I understand the perception may not have been favorable, but that is far from the reality currently. Honestly speaking as well, I think merging the groups is a terrible idea that would result in a loss of specialization and needless bloat that'll result in far more harm than good.

I'm not going to refute anything you said, I did say from what my experience was which is mainly limited to a few seasons ago, so fair enough. I am happy to hear more communication is happening, I think the main point I was trying to get to with the "merging comment" was that rather than the focus being on the SMJHL or SHL for the two groups, the focus really needs to be at the site-level at this point. The specialization will still be needed for day-to-day activities, but when it comes to initiatives or rule changes, or any other systems, I think the teams should work much much closer together than I had ever seen in my iteration of HO. It never felt like the two HOs were pushing in the same direction when I was in it, so I hope that can be the case cause without the J being fun the SHL will suffer, but if the SHL cannot be fun then the J won't keep up growth either cause not everyone is down for it either.

Entirely fair. Thank you for this conversation and for your perspective, I'm very glad to talk these things out. I think there's some interesting ideas present, but the execution and realization of them can be a very difficult process

S66 Damian Littleton

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Rotti · 04-04-2022, 04:33 PM

04-04-2022, 04:26 PMCampinKiller Wrote:
04-04-2022, 04:11 PMSburbine Wrote: Not a great look coming off of winning the cup with the 11th highest TPE in the league (in the SHL no less where it's much harder to win) and saying "sorry about the rng bro"

They also "don't test" according to their coGM and apparently lost the vast majority of their tests vs LAP, while Fuzz had maybe a 30% success rate, so.

This was in reference to being told Hallsy and I spend our entire lives sim testing. Fuzz can say what he wants, we were sub 50% against Bap and hovering around 50% vs LAP. Here Is a screenshot from our management channel before the BAP series.

JumpierPegasus · 04-04-2022, 04:34 PM

League is too cowardly to put gooney in charge but I think he has proved he is ready

***Hallsy*** · 04-04-2022, 04:36 PM

04-04-2022, 04:26 PMCampinKiller Wrote:
04-04-2022, 04:11 PMSburbine Wrote: Not a great look coming off of winning the cup with the 11th highest TPE in the league (in the SHL no less where it's much harder to win) and saying "sorry about the rng bro"

They also "don't test" according to their coGM and apparently lost the vast majority of their tests vs LAP, while Fuzz had maybe a 30% success rate, so.

We test to look at expectations for the series like any normal gm would do

Symmetrik · 04-04-2022, 04:37 PM

Newfoundland drafted 6 players in S62 (with a pick as late as 47, only 2 1st round picks) who have all surpassed the 425 TPE cap. 2 1st round picks from S63 as well. Most other teams have 1-3 players from their S62 draft. To pull in 6 capped players from a single draft without having to give up tons of picks to collect high draft capital can lead to a dominant run in today's SMJHL when players stick around for 4 seasons. Having 1 single stacked draft like that meant that regularly solid drafts like S63 & 64 combined with a couple good FA signings can lead to a lot of dominance.

sash · 04-04-2022, 04:42 PM

why yall so mad about randomness when hockey itself is a very luck based sport all things considered

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