04-23-2019, 12:16 PMSegi Wrote: With that said, let me explain why I'm convinced that our reaction was adequate in this case:
There are 3 parties at fault in this case:
STL management, who picked at a position they shouldn't have and therefore got a free player.
COL management, who saw the wrong draft order posted and didn't remember that they should own the pick in quesiton.
The pick tracker, who didn't process the trade correctly, which lead to the wrong draft order being posted.
If you want to blame HO for not firing the pick tracker sooner, that's fair. But you can't expect from HO, to go over every trade from the last couple of seasons to double check the draft order, before posting it.
Colorado and St. Louis made the exact same mistake in this case - not keeping track of their own picks. Sure, Colorado ended up getting the short stick in the whole thing, but that doesn't change the fact that they just as much at fault here as St. Louis is. If we simply gave Colorado their pick back, we're saying that you don't have to keep track of the picks, you've traded for, because if you miss one, we'll just punish the other team and hand it back to you. That's not how we keep these situations from happening.
St. Louis got taken away two picks, because they actually got a player out of the trade and we can't unmake that.
So it's reasonable to expect a team to thoroughly review their trade partner's actions and verify all parts of a trade but not reasonable for to expect HO to monitor league trades and own at least some of the blame for the state of the pick tracker beyond "Well, we fired that guy so it's all good now?"
I don't see how giving Colorado a compensatory pick as a mea culpa for the situation isn't a huge ask just because they didn't catch it before the draft. Lots of people should have caught it long before it got to that point, so why not just try to make the best of a bad situation and move on?
04-23-2019, 01:01 PM(This post was last modified: 04-23-2019, 01:02 PM by BDonini.)
04-23-2019, 12:55 PMztevans Wrote:
04-23-2019, 12:16 PMSegi Wrote: With that said, let me explain why I'm convinced that our reaction was adequate in this case:
There are 3 parties at fault in this case:
STL management, who picked at a position they shouldn't have and therefore got a free player.
COL management, who saw the wrong draft order posted and didn't remember that they should own the pick in quesiton.
The pick tracker, who didn't process the trade correctly, which lead to the wrong draft order being posted.
If you want to blame HO for not firing the pick tracker sooner, that's fair. But you can't expect from HO, to go over every trade from the last couple of seasons to double check the draft order, before posting it.
Colorado and St. Louis made the exact same mistake in this case - not keeping track of their own picks. Sure, Colorado ended up getting the short stick in the whole thing, but that doesn't change the fact that they just as much at fault here as St. Louis is. If we simply gave Colorado their pick back, we're saying that you don't have to keep track of the picks, you've traded for, because if you miss one, we'll just punish the other team and hand it back to you. That's not how we keep these situations from happening.
St. Louis got taken away two picks, because they actually got a player out of the trade and we can't unmake that.
So it's reasonable to expect a team to thoroughly review their trade partner's actions and verify all parts of a trade
Nobody said this anywhere.
Also I do agree the pick tracker should face some sort of additional fine.
04-23-2019, 12:16 PMSegi Wrote: With that said, let me explain why I'm convinced that our reaction was adequate in this case:
There are 3 parties at fault in this case:
STL management, who picked at a position they shouldn't have and therefore got a free player.
COL management, who saw the wrong draft order posted and didn't remember that they should own the pick in quesiton.
The pick tracker, who didn't process the trade correctly, which lead to the wrong draft order being posted.
If you want to blame HO for not firing the pick tracker sooner, that's fair. But you can't expect from HO, to go over every trade from the last couple of seasons to double check the draft order, before posting it.
Colorado and St. Louis made the exact same mistake in this case - not keeping track of their own picks. Sure, Colorado ended up getting the short stick in the whole thing, but that doesn't change the fact that they just as much at fault here as St. Louis is. If we simply gave Colorado their pick back, we're saying that you don't have to keep track of the picks, you've traded for, because if you miss one, we'll just punish the other team and hand it back to you. That's not how we keep these situations from happening.
St. Louis got taken away two picks, because they actually got a player out of the trade and we can't unmake that.
So it's reasonable to expect a team to thoroughly review their trade partner's actions and verify all parts of a trade but not reasonable for to expect HO to monitor league trades and own at least some of the blame for the state of the pick tracker beyond "Well, we fired that guy so it's all good now?"
No! Did you read, what I wrote?
We don't expect teams to check if the pick they trade for is a legal trade. That's why only Detroit got punished for that mess up. We are expecting of GMs to keep tracks what picks they do have and which ones they traded away. That's all.
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04-23-2019, 12:55 PMztevans Wrote: So it's reasonable to expect a team to thoroughly review their trade partner's actions and verify all parts of a trade but not reasonable for to expect HO to monitor league trades and own at least some of the blame for the state of the pick tracker beyond "Well, we fired that guy so it's all good now?"
No! Did you read, what I wrote?
We don't expect teams to check if the pick they trade for is a legal trade. That's why only Detroit got punished for that mess up. We are expecting of GMs to keep tracks what picks they do have and which ones they traded away. That's all.
Then how are you going to prevent it from happening as a GM if this is your responsibility? *If* Colorado had remembered they had this pick when the draft rolled around, then what? You still have an illegal trade and a mess on your hands.
I get it. Colorado's management should have remembered they traded for the pick. But without an accurate league-wide pick tracker as a resource, are they supposed to keep a log somewhere of their own past trades for fact-checking purposes, especially as management groups change?
I reiterate, verbatim: Lots of people should have caught it long before it got to that point, so why not just try to make the best of a bad situation and move on?
04-23-2019, 01:29 PM(This post was last modified: 04-23-2019, 01:33 PM by Segi.)
04-23-2019, 01:20 PMztevans Wrote: Then how are you going to prevent it from happening as a GM if this is your responsibility? *If* Colorado had remembered they had this pick when the draft rolled around, then what? You still have an illegal trade and a mess on your hands.
You're mixing things up here. The trade was totally legal. If Colorado had pointed out that the draft order was wrong ahead of the draft, we would have corrected it and everything would've been fine. We would've warned the pick tracker and probably denied him payment for the season. Problem solved.
04-23-2019, 01:20 PMztevans Wrote: I get it. Colorado's management should have remembered they traded for the pick. But without an accurate league-wide pick tracker as a resource, are they supposed to keep a log somewhere of their own past trades for fact-checking purposes, especially as management groups change?
Yes. GMs know that and many actually do.
04-23-2019, 01:20 PMztevans Wrote: I reiterate, verbatim: Lots of people should have caught it long before it got to that point, so why not just try to make the best of a bad situation and move on?
Because if we do that, it's gonna happen again, because GMs will not double check their picks ahead of the draft. STL played a full season with a team that was stronger than it should've been. I don't want to see that.
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04-22-2019, 11:56 PMztevans Wrote: I guess my biggest issue is that there's a well-established precedent for this exact scenario. When a pick gets double-traded, the offending team loses an extra pick and the "receiving" team still gets the pick. This precedent dates back several scenes and came back up very recently.
To go away from that precedent suddenly now because "it's the other team's fault too" ignores that in every other instance we've applied this result, the other team could have spotted the error as well. Furthermore, HO seems to be leaning a bit on "Well, we've changed pick trackers since then" which, like, yeah, both teams have changed at least one GM since then. That's only evidence of how badly the ball was dropped by all parties. So making an exception to the precedent on this one occasion because "It's sorta Colorado's fault too" is really dangerous, imo.
These are really two different issues. We can't expect from a GM to double check if a pick they trade for is available, but we definitely can expect GMs to keep track of which picks they have traded away and which picks they received.
I'm gonna address the whole thing now that I'm finally at home, because it was really me, who cinvinced the rest of HO about the whole thing. Every argument I've read in this thread so far, has come up in the internal discussion in HO and I can really stay behind the decision. So if you have any new point, I'm open to hearing it. I'm also open to criticism about SMJHL HO in general. I know, we can do better and I give my best to do so.
With that said, let me explain why I'm convinced that our reaction was adequate in this case:
There are 3 parties at fault in this case:
STL management, who picked at a position they shouldn't have and therefore got a free player.
COL management, who saw the wrong draft order posted and didn't remember that they should own the pick in quesiton.
The pick tracker, who didn't process the trade correctly, which lead to the wrong draft order being posted.
If you want to blame HO for not firing the pick tracker sooner, that's fair. But you can't expect from HO, to go over every trade from the last couple of seasons to double check the draft order, before posting it.
Colorado and St. Louis made the exact same mistake in this case - not keeping track of their own picks. Sure, Colorado ended up getting the short stick in the whole thing, but that doesn't change the fact that they just as much at fault here as St. Louis is. If we simply gave Colorado their pick back, we're saying that you don't have to keep track of the picks, you've traded for, because if you miss one, we'll just punish the other team and hand it back to you. That's not how we keep these situations from happening.
St. Louis got taken away two picks, because they actually got a player out of the trade and we can't unmake that.
For anyone who doesn't know yet, the picktracker in question has been fired and @Weretarantula is doing a great job as pick tracker so far. Should a mistake ever happen to him or someone who does the job in the future, we expect GMs to catch it before the draft, so a situation like this will never appear again.
I'm not trying to be a dick, but how is Colorado at fault for relying on the pick tracker to remember this trade happened, but HO isn't at fault for relying on the pick tracker when posting the draft order? Is the pick tracker supposed to be reliable or not? For Colorado, it can't be the one, true resource to keep track of their picks, and its their fault for relying on it, but for HO, relying on it is expected and the fact that it wasn't accurate is entirely on the pick tracker and not HO? To me this sounds like the role of pick tracker is incredibly undefined here. No one is disputing either of the 3 faults you brought up, but its asinine to say HO isn't a 4th branch also at fault here. Blaming everybody but yourselves seems lazy
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04-23-2019, 12:16 PMSegi Wrote: These are really two different issues. We can't expect from a GM to double check if a pick they trade for is available, but we definitely can expect GMs to keep track of which picks they have traded away and which picks they received.
I'm gonna address the whole thing now that I'm finally at home, because it was really me, who cinvinced the rest of HO about the whole thing. Every argument I've read in this thread so far, has come up in the internal discussion in HO and I can really stay behind the decision. So if you have any new point, I'm open to hearing it. I'm also open to criticism about SMJHL HO in general. I know, we can do better and I give my best to do so.
With that said, let me explain why I'm convinced that our reaction was adequate in this case:
There are 3 parties at fault in this case:
STL management, who picked at a position they shouldn't have and therefore got a free player.
COL management, who saw the wrong draft order posted and didn't remember that they should own the pick in quesiton.
The pick tracker, who didn't process the trade correctly, which lead to the wrong draft order being posted.
If you want to blame HO for not firing the pick tracker sooner, that's fair. But you can't expect from HO, to go over every trade from the last couple of seasons to double check the draft order, before posting it.
Colorado and St. Louis made the exact same mistake in this case - not keeping track of their own picks. Sure, Colorado ended up getting the short stick in the whole thing, but that doesn't change the fact that they just as much at fault here as St. Louis is. If we simply gave Colorado their pick back, we're saying that you don't have to keep track of the picks, you've traded for, because if you miss one, we'll just punish the other team and hand it back to you. That's not how we keep these situations from happening.
St. Louis got taken away two picks, because they actually got a player out of the trade and we can't unmake that.
For anyone who doesn't know yet, the picktracker in question has been fired and @Weretarantula is doing a great job as pick tracker so far. Should a mistake ever happen to him or someone who does the job in the future, we expect GMs to catch it before the draft, so a situation like this will never appear again.
I'm not trying to be a dick, but how is Colorado at fault for relying on the pick tracker to remember this trade happened, but HO isn't at fault for relying on the pick tracker when posting the draft order? Is the pick tracker supposed to be reliable or not? For Colorado, it can't be the one, true resource to keep track of their picks, and its their fault for relying on it, but for HO, relying on it is expected and the fact that it wasn't accurate is entirely on the pick tracker and not HO? To me this sounds like the role of pick tracker is incredibly undefined here. No one is disputing either of the 3 faults you brought up, but its asinine to say HO isn't a 4th branch also at fault here. Blaming everybody but yourselves seems lazy
This thread is just going in circles at this point because that question's been answered over and over again.
04-23-2019, 01:20 PMztevans Wrote: *If* Colorado had remembered they had this pick when the draft rolled around, then what? You still have an illegal trade and a mess on your hands.
It would have been a legal trade. Frankly, it was a legal trade.
STL traded their pick to COL.
Pick tracker isn't updated with it.
STL makes their own pick at the S46 draft.
If Colorado remembers they had that pick, the draft order would have been corrected and no one would be punished. Same goes for STL if they recognize that they're picking with a pick they traded away.
It's not hard for GMs to remember picks that they've acquired. Even if the pick tracker is only 90% accurate, it's reasonable to expect that between 20 GMs they can account for the remaining 10% that's inaccurate.
04-23-2019, 01:33 PMnour Wrote: I'm not trying to be a dick, but how is Colorado at fault for relying on the pick tracker to remember this trade happened, but HO isn't at fault for relying on the pick tracker when posting the draft order? Is the pick tracker supposed to be reliable or not? For Colorado, it can't be the one, true resource to keep track of their picks, and its their fault for relying on it, but for HO, relying on it is expected and the fact that it wasn't accurate is entirely on the pick tracker and not HO? To me this sounds like the role of pick tracker is incredibly undefined here. No one is disputing either of the 3 faults you brought up, but its asinine to say HO isn't a 4th branch also at fault here. Blaming everybody but yourselves seems lazy
This thread is just going in circles at this point because that question's been answered over and over again.
Okay, so we'll just ignore the second part where HO absolves itself from all blame, got it.
**First GM in SMJHL history to win 3 Four Star Cups back-to-back-to-back**
04-23-2019, 01:20 PMztevans Wrote: Then how are you going to prevent it from happening as a GM if this is your responsibility? *If* Colorado had remembered they had this pick when the draft rolled around, then what? You still have an illegal trade and a mess on your hands.
You're mixing things up here. The trade was totally legal. If Colorado had pointed out that the draft order was wrong ahead of the draft, we would have corrected it and everything would've been fine. We would've warned the pick tracker and probably denied him payment for the season. Problem solved.
04-23-2019, 01:20 PMztevans Wrote: I get it. Colorado's management should have remembered they traded for the pick. But without an accurate league-wide pick tracker as a resource, are they supposed to keep a log somewhere of their own past trades for fact-checking purposes, especially as management groups change?
Yes. GMs know that and many actually do.
04-23-2019, 01:20 PMztevans Wrote: I reiterate, verbatim: Lots of people should have caught it long before it got to that point, so why not just try to make the best of a bad situation and move on?
Because if we do that, it's gonna happen again, because GMs will not double check their picks ahead of the draft. STL played a full season with a team that was stronger than it should've been. I don't want to see that.
1 - Fair
2 - So literally why pay a pick tracker? Is it just so HO can wash themselves of this entirely because it was the pick trackers' and GM's fault?
3 - Could not disagree more outside of the last sentence. None of us want to see this again. But just assuming bringing down the big dick of the law will prevent future issues is, honestly, naive and willfully ignoring the larger part of SHL history. Tampering has some of the most over-the-top punishments in the league, to the point that it can crush franchises, and yet it has happened multiple times over the course of the league. People are gonna screw up. I don't see how responding to those screw-ups with such punitive measures proves anything other than a lack of empathy.
04-23-2019, 12:16 PMSegi Wrote: These are really two different issues. We can't expect from a GM to double check if a pick they trade for is available, but we definitely can expect GMs to keep track of which picks they have traded away and which picks they received.
I'm gonna address the whole thing now that I'm finally at home, because it was really me, who cinvinced the rest of HO about the whole thing. Every argument I've read in this thread so far, has come up in the internal discussion in HO and I can really stay behind the decision. So if you have any new point, I'm open to hearing it. I'm also open to criticism about SMJHL HO in general. I know, we can do better and I give my best to do so.
With that said, let me explain why I'm convinced that our reaction was adequate in this case:
There are 3 parties at fault in this case:
STL management, who picked at a position they shouldn't have and therefore got a free player.
COL management, who saw the wrong draft order posted and didn't remember that they should own the pick in quesiton.
The pick tracker, who didn't process the trade correctly, which lead to the wrong draft order being posted.
If you want to blame HO for not firing the pick tracker sooner, that's fair. But you can't expect from HO, to go over every trade from the last couple of seasons to double check the draft order, before posting it.
Colorado and St. Louis made the exact same mistake in this case - not keeping track of their own picks. Sure, Colorado ended up getting the short stick in the whole thing, but that doesn't change the fact that they just as much at fault here as St. Louis is. If we simply gave Colorado their pick back, we're saying that you don't have to keep track of the picks, you've traded for, because if you miss one, we'll just punish the other team and hand it back to you. That's not how we keep these situations from happening.
St. Louis got taken away two picks, because they actually got a player out of the trade and we can't unmake that.
For anyone who doesn't know yet, the picktracker in question has been fired and @Weretarantula is doing a great job as pick tracker so far. Should a mistake ever happen to him or someone who does the job in the future, we expect GMs to catch it before the draft, so a situation like this will never appear again.
I'm not trying to be a dick, but how is Colorado at fault for relying on the pick tracker to remember this trade happened, but HO isn't at fault for relying on the pick tracker when posting the draft order? Is the pick tracker supposed to be reliable or not? For Colorado, it can't be the one, true resource to keep track of their picks, and its their fault for relying on it, but for HO, relying on it is expected and the fact that it wasn't accurate is entirely on the pick tracker and not HO? To me this sounds like the role of pick tracker is incredibly undefined here. No one is disputing either of the 3 faults you brought up, but its asinine to say HO isn't a 4th branch also at fault here. Blaming everybody but yourselves seems lazy
04-23-2019, 12:16 PMSegi Wrote: But you can't expect from HO, to go over every trade from the last couple of seasons to double check the draft order, before posting it.
If we needed to double check ourselves, we wouldn't need the pick tracker. We don't ask GM's to double check everything, just their own picks. We do our best to make sure the pick tracker is doing his job and yeah, maybe HO at that time didn't do enough. But you can't ask of us to go over every single trade before a draft. On the other hand, a lot of GMs agree that we can expect of them to keep track of their own draft picks.
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Seriously, I'm not trying to demand perfection from HO. I've been there. But literally just compare these two posts.
04-22-2019, 09:24 PMNobody Wrote:
As many people now know (thanks @JSS...) The St. Louis Scarecrows used a pick in the S46 draft that they did not possess. The S46 pick was traded to the Colorado Raptors in exchange for the rights to a player. This error was not caught until recently. As it has been stated in the past, it falls on the team to ensure that picks are tracked correctly. This was made even more clear during the changeover of our pick tracker.
The punishment for this offence is as follows. The Scarecrows will give up their next non reddit 3rd round pick to cover the S46 pick that they should not have had, The Colorado Raptors will NOT receive this pick. In addition the Scarecrows will forfiet an additional 3rd round non reddit pick.
02-14-2018, 11:02 PMstorm Wrote: Hello everyone,
In the past few days the SMJHL Head Office has noticed two instances of teams being punished with a loss of a pick, and then using that pick for drafting or transactions. These teams are not at fault, however, as it was our duty to ensure the draft pick tracker as well as other facets of the SMJHL were updated properly to ensure a situation like this wouldn't arise. While we're incredibly embarrassed by this whole situation, we still have a responsibility to rectify our past mistakes.The picks in question are Halifax's S40 3rd round selection, as well as Kelowna's S39 3rd round selection. After speaking with the two current GM's of the teams in question, and some lengthy discussion in the Head Office, we decided the best course of action was to forfeit the teams S42 3rd round selection, and should S42 be a reddit draft (since 3rd's in reddit drafts have much more value), we'd be willing to shift that pick to S43.
Again, this is a situation we're deeply embarrassed by and we're actively taking measures to ensure something like this doesn't happen again.
Thanks for your time.
The first one assumes no blame on the part of HO or the pick tracker for not properly tracking picks even though the pick tracker is a league-paid job. The first one even goes as far as to shame a GM who has brought the situation to public right after the lack of a timely resolution.
The second one displays shame and an acknowledgement that, if HO had done its job properly, we wouldn't be having this issue. The second indicates a proper discourse between all parties to reach an amicable solution and a pledge by HO to do better in the future rather than shovel the responsibility on GMs.
04-23-2019, 01:41 PMSegi Wrote: If we needed to double check ourselves, we wouldn't need the pick tracker. We don't ask GM's to double check everything, just their own picks. We do our best to make sure the pick tracker is doing his job and yeah, maybe HO at that time didn't do enough. But you can't ask of us to go over every single trade before a draft. On the other hand, a lot of GMs agree that we can expect of them to keep track of their own draft picks.
I absolutely can expect that from HO because I used to do it before "Pick Tracker" was a league job, lol
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