Quote:Originally posted by mpc@Aug 13 2017, 04:12 PM Against this for the sole purpose of punishments not being catered to the new management. It's a small move, but sets an odd precedent for GMs in trouble: step down from the role and reduce the punishment to your team. Even when forcibly removed, that thinking is what I take away from this, and that seems off.
So you'd prefer the entire franchise be set back 5-10 seasons, instead of firing and suspending the people actually at fault and reducing the lasting effects on the team and those who had nothing to do with it? I'm also pretty sure no one else sees this as a problem, so good job pointing it out for everyone.
Or maybe now that their setting the precedent of firing GMs, your starting to sweat a little.
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Quote:Originally posted by Mr. Deplorable@Aug 13 2017, 04:21 PM
So you'd prefer the entire franchise be set back 5-10 seasons, instead of firing and suspending the people actually at fault and reducing the lasting effects on the team and those who had nothing to do with it?
I have to agree with this. Thinking like this isn't helpful and would lead to people going inactive because they're stuck at a team that has been that badly set back.
Quote:Originally posted by Caillean@Aug 13 2017, 07:24 PM
At the end of the day this is my main concern. Of course it's not the end of the world and is absolutely reparable, but at the same time it seems really unnecessary to take out punishment on a team for the gms mistakes *after the gm is gone*. It would be one thing if wally or Dunn were staying on, because it would truly be penalizing them for their cheating- but in this scenario removing picks doesn't hurt them, it only hurts the team and whoever is going to be coming in to clean up the mess now.
I mean I get it, but I just think it sucks.
I understand this sentiment of not wanting to punish the team too much and not hurting people who had nothing to do with the cheating, but I do think that some of you are too lenient here. I see it like this: If this had gone unnoticed, and it very nearly did, then not just Wally but Portland as a whole would have massively benefited from it. So the ones who would have benefited from the cheating are also the ones that need to be punished, not too harshly but still to an extent that actually hurts. And all the past trades and the retirements shouldn't impact this decision at all.
In a broader sense, teams on the SHL are just an abstract construct anyway and not really a legal entity of their own, as they are in real life. So every team on here is just a collection of people and if you are gonna punish those people, you are gonna punish the team as well and vice versa. And in this case I think that the league found a decent balance.
It's not really different from the other punishments that the league can hand out and has handed out in the past, tampering is usually a transgression done by an individual, but not just the individual is punished but the team as well. If GMs screw up and don't submit rosters or don't play their back-up too much, it's not just them who get punished but the team gets punished as well. The only thing where this doesn't apply is suspensions based on forum conduct, and even there you could argue that a key player being suspended long-term for a forum incident is as much a punishment to the team as it is to said player.
I'd actually go even further and argue that the fact that our punishments are so team-heavy is one of the main factors that (hopefully) makes them effective and serves as a deterrent. If the punishment for cheating or tampering was just you being fired or your player being suspended, then I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few more people decided that that's worth the gamble and if they got caught and lost their job, so be it. But to know that you wouldn't just fuck yourself over but the people on your team as well, the people that you (hopefully) care about, that will really make most people think twice about whether they wanna risk trying to cheat, and only the more cold-blooded bastards are gonna go through with it.
We likely wouldn't be having this argument if Portland wasn't reckless with their asset management. Sorry, but ignorance isn't an excuse to lessen a team's punishment. Moreover, if previous GM's actions can lead to worse team punishment's than this and survive, Portland can certainly do the same.
Quote:Originally posted by RomanesEuntDomus@Aug 13 2017, 04:27 PM
I understand this sentiment of not wanting to punish the team too much and not hurting people who had nothing to do with the cheating, but I do think that some of you are too lenient here. I see it like this: If this had gone unnoticed, and it very nearly did, then not just Wally but Portland as a whole would have massively benefited from it. So the ones who would have benefited from the cheating are also the ones that need to be punished, not too harshly but still to an extent that actually hurts. And all the past trades and the retirements shouldn't impact this decision at all.
In a broader sense, teams on the SHL are just an abstract construct anyway and not really a legal entity of their own, as they are in real life. So every team on here is just a collection of people and if you are gonna punish those people, you are gonna punish the team as well and vice versa. And in this case I think that the league found a decent balance.
It's not really different from the other punishments that the league can hand out and has handed out in the past, tampering is usually a transgression done by an individual, but not just the individual is punished but the team as well. If GMs screw up and don't submit rosters or don't play their back-up too much, it's not just them who get punished but the team gets punished as well. The only thing where this doesn't apply is suspensions based on forum conduct, and even there you could argue that a key player being suspended long-term for a forum incident is as much a punishment to the team as it is to said player.
I'd actually go even further and argue that the fact that our punishments are so team-heavy is one of the main factors that (hopefully) makes them effective and serves as a deterrant. If the punishment for cheating or tampering was just you being fired or your player being suspended, then I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few more people decided that that's worth the gamble and if they got caught and lost their job, so be it. But to know that you wouldn't just fuck yourself over but the people on your team as well, the people that you (hopefully) care about, that will really make most people think twice about whether they wanna risk trying to cheat, and only the more cold-blooded bastards are gonna go through with it.
Overall I don't disagree with this line of thinking, and I've often supported it. But lately it's starting to dawn on me that despite the incredibly harsh and Team heavy penalties dished out for tampering, and now cap circumvention, it doesn't seem to stop people from violating the rules.
I think it may be time to approach this from a different angle, and focus on the actual offender. I'm perfectly fine with handing down sanctions on the team as well, but the focus needs to be on the idiot who disregarded the rules and wilfully and knowingly broke them- without his team having any knowledge.
Let's take a look at the current tampering rules:
First Offense:
Loss of three first round draft picks
Inability to sign any free agents for one full season (preseason to end of season)
Suspension of GM's player for entire season
$10,000,000 fine to the team
Aside from the player suspension, this is completely hammering the team. The GM should simply be fired and banned from management positions ever again, and you could still swipe one first round pick as well. That would be more effective in my opinion.
It boggles my mind that we currently allow tampering offenders to be in management positions, because you are literally asking to end up with a team completely crippled.
Second Offense:
Loss of five first round draft picks
Inability to sign any free agents for two seasons
Suspension of GM's player for two full seasons + 1 week forum ban
$20mil fine
Explain to me why in the world a second Offense is even a possibility. Why would you give someone a second chance knowing that something like this could happen? Eliminate the problem from the very first Offense.
Just seems like these are designed to specifically destroy a franchise, when the real issue isn't the franchise, it's the shitheads cheating. Again, i agree with penalising the team as well, but not to this extent, and it should NEVER reach a second Offense.
S2, S5, S18, S22 Challenge Cup Champion
Hall Of Famers: (S7) Alex Reay | (S28) Daniel Merica
I understand this sentiment of not wanting to punish the team too much and not hurting people who had nothing to do with the cheating, but I do think that some of you are too lenient here. I see it like this: If this had gone unnoticed, and it very nearly did, then not just Wally but Portland as a whole would have massively benefited from it. So the ones who would have benefited from the cheating are also the ones that need to be punished, not too harshly but still to an extent that actually hurts. And all the past trades and the retirements shouldn't impact this decision at all.
In a broader sense, teams on the SHL are just an abstract construct anyway and not really a legal entity of their own, as they are in real life. So every team on here is just a collection of people and if you are gonna punish those people, you are gonna punish the team as well and vice versa. And in this case I think that the league found a decent balance.
It's not really different from the other punishments that the league can hand out and has handed out in the past, tampering is usually a transgression done by an individual, but not just the individual is punished but the team as well. If GMs screw up and don't submit rosters or don't play their back-up too much, it's not just them who get punished but the team gets punished as well. The only thing where this doesn't apply is suspensions based on forum conduct, and even there you could argue that a key player being suspended long-term for a forum incident is as much a punishment to the team as it is to said player.
I'd actually go even further and argue that the fact that our punishments are so team-heavy is one of the main factors that (hopefully) makes them effective and serves as a deterrent. If the punishment for cheating or tampering was just you being fired or your player being suspended, then I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few more people decided that that's worth the gamble and if they got caught and lost their job, so be it. But to know that you wouldn't just fuck yourself over but the people on your team as well, the people that you (hopefully) care about, that will really make most people think twice about whether they wanna risk trying to cheat, and only the more cold-blooded bastards are gonna go through with it.[/b]
Those are all insanely good points. As much as I may not like it, this completely put into perspective for me why there need to be harsh team punishments too. Only thing I don't 100% agree on though is the idea that a team punishment may deter people from tampering. Maybe I'm just jaded, but I wouldn't be surprised to see people care less about screwing over a team than themselves- but then again, I'm sure those aren't the kind of people that would want to GM anyway, or at very least hopefully not the kind that would get hired.
Overall I don't disagree with this line of thinking, and I've often supported it. But lately it's starting to dawn on me that despite the incredibly harsh and Team heavy penalties dished out for tampering, and now cap circumvention, it doesn't seem to stop people from violating the rules.
I think it may be time to approach this from a different angle, and focus on the actual offender. I'm perfectly fine with handing down sanctions on the team as well, but the focus needs to be on the idiot who disregarded the rules and wilfully and knowingly broke them- without his team having any knowledge.
Let's take a look at the current tampering rules:
First Offense:
Loss of three first round draft picks
Inability to sign any free agents for one full season (preseason to end of season)
Suspension of GM's player for entire season
$10,000,000 fine to the team
Aside from the player suspension, this is completely hammering the team. The GM should simply be fired and banned from management positions ever again, and you could still swipe one first round pick as well. That would be more effective in my opinion.
It boggles my mind that we currently allow tampering offenders to be in management positions, because you are literally asking to end up with a team completely crippled.
Second Offense:
Loss of five first round draft picks
Inability to sign any free agents for two seasons
Suspension of GM's player for two full seasons + 1 week forum ban
$20mil fine
Explain to me why in the world a second Offense is even a possibility. Why would you give someone a second chance knowing that something like this could happen? Eliminate the problem from the very first Offense.
Just seems like these are designed to specifically destroy a franchise, when the real issue isn't the franchise, it's the shitheads cheating. Again, i agree with penalising the team as well, but not to this extent, and it should NEVER reach a second Offense.[/quote]
Not often I say this, but agreed completely.
Quote:Originally posted by Caillean@Aug 13 2017, 04:48 PM
Those are all insanely good points. As much as I may not like it, this completely put into perspective for me why there need to be harsh team punishments too. Only thing I don't 100% agree on though is the idea that a team punishment may deter people from tampering. Maybe I'm just jaded, but I wouldn't be surprised to see people care less about screwing over a team than themselves- but then again, I'm sure those aren't the kind of people that would want to GM anyway, or at very least hopefully not the kind that would get hired.
I don't recall the last time we had a deliberate tampering violation since Toronto with Rain, and even that wasn't malicious.
Quote:Originally posted by Winter is Coming@Aug 13 2017, 02:49 PM
I don't recall the last time we had a deliberate tampering violation since Toronto with Rain, and even that wasn't malicious.
I guess I should have specified, meant tampering/circumventing cap/cheating in general.
Quote:Originally posted by Winter is Coming@Aug 13 2017, 04:49 PM
I don't recall the last time we had a deliberate tampering violation since Toronto with Rain, and even that wasn't malicious.
There's no distinction in the rules for deliberate or accidental, so I don't see the point you are trying to make.
S2, S5, S18, S22 Challenge Cup Champion
Hall Of Famers: (S7) Alex Reay | (S28) Daniel Merica
Quote:Originally posted by Mr. Deplorable@Aug 13 2017, 05:40 PM
Overall I don't disagree with this line of thinking, and I've often supported it. But lately it's starting to dawn on me that despite the incredibly harsh and Team heavy penalties dished out for tampering, and now cap circumvention, it doesn't seem to stop people from violating the rules.
I think it may be time to approach this from a different angle, and focus on the actual offender. I'm perfectly fine with handing down sanctions on the team as well, but the focus needs to be on the idiot who disregarded the rules and wilfully and knowingly broke them- without his team having any knowledge.
Let's take a look at the current tampering rules:
First Offense:
Loss of three first round draft picks
Inability to sign any free agents for one full season (preseason to end of season)
Suspension of GM's player for entire season
$10,000,000 fine to the team
Aside from the player suspension, this is completely hammering the team. The GM should simply be fired and banned from management positions ever again, and you could still swipe one first round pick as well. That would be more effective in my opinion.
It boggles my mind that we currently allow tampering offenders to be in management positions, because you are literally asking to end up with a team completely crippled.
Second Offense:
Loss of five first round draft picks
Inability to sign any free agents for two seasons
Suspension of GM's player for two full seasons + 1 week forum ban
$20mil fine
Explain to me why in the world a second Offense is even a possibility. Why would you give someone a second chance knowing that something like this could happen? Eliminate the problem from the very first Offense.
Just seems like these are designed to specifically destroy a franchise, when the real issue isn't the franchise, it's the shitheads cheating. Again, i agree with penalising the team as well, but not to this extent, and it should NEVER reach a second Offense.
Quote:Originally posted by Mr. Deplorable@Aug 13 2017, 04:51 PM
There's no distinction in the rules for deliberate or accidental, so I don't see the point you are trying to make.
The point I am trying to make is that Wally/Tweedle's actions were malicious and with obvious intent, while Rain's were stupid and through ignorance. However, the team was punished all the same for the latter, so I see no reason why the same shouldn't apply here.
Quote:Originally posted by Winter is Coming@Aug 13 2017, 04:55 PM
The point I am trying to make is that Wally/Tweedle's actions were malicious and with obvious intent, while Rain's were stupid and through ignorance. However, the team was punished all the same for the latter, so I see no reason why the same shouldn't apply here.
Ah gotcha.
Personally I'm happy their setting a new standard.
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