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Dangles13 · 08-13-2017, 06:25 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Mr. Deplorable@Aug 13 2017, 03:40 PM

Overall I don't disagree with this line of thinking, and I've often supported it. But lately it's starting to dawn on me that despite the incredibly harsh and Team heavy penalties dished out for tampering, and now cap circumvention, it doesn't seem to stop people from violating the rules.

I think it may be time to approach this from a different angle, and focus on the actual offender. I'm perfectly fine with handing down sanctions on the team as well, but the focus needs to be on the idiot who disregarded the rules and wilfully and knowingly broke them- without his team having any knowledge.

Let's take a look at the current tampering rules:

First Offense:
Loss of three first round draft picks
Inability to sign any free agents for one full season (preseason to end of season)
Suspension of GM's player for entire season
$10,000,000 fine to the team

Aside from the player suspension, this is completely hammering the team. The GM should simply be fired and banned from management positions ever again, and you could still swipe one first round pick as well.  That would be more effective in my opinion.

It boggles my mind that we currently allow tampering offenders to be in management positions, because you are literally asking to end up with a team completely crippled.

Second Offense:
Loss of five first round draft picks
Inability to sign any free agents for two seasons
Suspension of GM's player for two full seasons + 1 week forum ban
$20mil fine

Explain to me why in the world a second Offense is even a possibility. Why would you give someone a second chance knowing that something like this could happen?  Eliminate the problem from the very first Offense.

Just seems like these are designed to specifically destroy a franchise, when the real issue isn't the franchise, it's the shitheads cheating.  Again, i agree with penalising the team as well, but not to this extent, and it should NEVER reach a second Offense.

Absolutely. Fire cheaters period. Maybe first time is a ban of 3-5 seasons from management because sometimes shit happens and mistakes are made but the second offense should permant ban from management roles.

Sorator · 08-13-2017, 06:38 PM

Jesus fucking Christ.

Goddammit <a href='index.php?showuser=2236' rel='nofollow' alt='profile link' class='user-tagged mgroup-3'>Wally</a>, I respected you. But you didn't respect your fellow GMs, the league as a whole, or even you own damn rookies enough to care about being honest with your budget and your contracts.

This wasn't just a mistake. This was a mistake that you knowingly compounded instead of fixing, then lied to multiple people about it, then made a whole fucking deal over and likely caused several of your players to retire and even leave the site cause they thought it was just a mistake, when you fucking knew. You fucking knew!

God fucking dammit.

I had been careful not to assume it was blatant cheating until more info came to light, but fuck, that's exactly what it was. You goddamn bastard.

---------

Separate from that, good result from the appeal, I think. The team does have to suffer significant penalties to discourage GMs considering stepping down from pulling shit like this and thinking "well, they'll just fire + suspend me if I get caught, no biggie." Giving back a first was needed, and changing the cap penalty so the incoming GMs aren't starting this season massively over the cap was also needed. Thanks for some solid work, Spangs&Leafs.

(And I see RED said the same with more explanation already.)

--------

Quote:Originally posted by mpc@Aug 13 2017, 03:12 PM
Against this for the sole purpose of punishments not being catered to the new management. It's a small move, but sets an odd precedent for GMs in trouble: step down from the role and reduce the punishment to your team. Even when forcibly removed, that thinking is what I take away from this, and that seems off.

Gotta find a balance, but I very much see where you're coming from.

CBear · 08-13-2017, 06:49 PM

<a href='index.php?showuser=1722' rel='nofollow' alt='profile link' class='user-tagged mgroup-13'>Nereus</a>
it's ok bb.. eat more pizza while you're at it.
[Image: FW1tp.gif]

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 08-13-2017, 06:49 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Mr. Deplorable+Aug 13 2017, 10:40 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mr. Deplorable @ Aug 13 2017, 10:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Overall I don't disagree with this line of thinking, and I've often supported it. But lately it's starting to dawn on me that despite the incredibly harsh and Team heavy penalties dished out for tampering, and now cap circumvention, it doesn't seem to stop people from violating the rules.

I think it may be time to approach this from a different angle, and focus on the actual offender. I'm perfectly fine with handing down sanctions on the team as well, but the focus needs to be on the idiot who disregarded the rules and wilfully and knowingly broke them- without his team having any knowledge.

Let's take a look at the current tampering rules:

First Offense:
Loss of three first round draft picks
Inability to sign any free agents for one full season (preseason to end of season)
Suspension of GM's player for entire season
$10,000,000 fine to the team

Aside from the player suspension, this is completely hammering the team. The GM should simply be fired and banned from management positions ever again, and you could still swipe one first round pick as well. That would be more effective in my opinion.

It boggles my mind that we currently allow tampering offenders to be in management positions, because you are literally asking to end up with a team completely crippled.

Second Offense:
Loss of five first round draft picks
Inability to sign any free agents for two seasons
Suspension of GM's player for two full seasons + 1 week forum ban
$20mil fine

Explain to me why in the world a second Offense is even a possibility. Why would you give someone a second chance knowing that something like this could happen? Eliminate the problem from the very first Offense.

Just seems like these are designed to specifically destroy a franchise, when the real issue isn't the franchise, it's the shitheads cheating. Again, i agree with penalising the team as well, but not to this extent, and it should NEVER reach a second Offense.[/b]

Tweaking the balance a bit might be a good idea, but have there really been that many cases of people deliberately cheating/tampering/violating the rules in any way that gives them a competitive advantage? Maybe I'm forgetting some of them but it really doesn't feel like this happens a lot, before this Portland thing there were like what, three cases in about two real life years (Portland, Toronto, Buffalo)? And of these three cases, at least one or two were basically accidental, which even the people in favor of the punishment acknowledged. Whether they were accidental or deliberate might not matter when dealing out the punishment itself, but it matters when judging the effectiveness of the rules. When someone isn't even aware that he is breaking the rules, then arguing whether the rules are enough of a deterrent or not becomes pointless. So if you put aside those accidental/reckless transgressions, how many cases are left were GMs actually knowingly tried to cheat to get an advantage? Maybe like one in three years? I think that's a pretty good record and an indication that the rules as a whole seem to be more or less working in that regard.

And I think especially when talking about tampering, the rules need to be very harsh for the mere fact that tampering is so easy to do and so difficult to detect. I think we can all agree that tampering happens constantly, when people talk to their friends or people they would like to play with through channels that the league can not and should not monitor. We can't really do anything against that so the least we can do is to make the punishment really really bad for those that get caught. Tampering might be easy but if you get caught, both you and your team are fucked. It's basically the only thing we can do to at least somewhat combat tampering. If we don't wanna do that then we might just as well legalize tampering altogether, like some other leagues. Not a fan of that though.

I do agree however with some of your points about the specific punishments. GM being fired at the first offense - done. And the Second Offense thing doesn't really make any sense at all, I agree. Luckily it has never happened but if we one day need to activate that rule, it would punish a franchise way too much. Banning the perpetrator outright but not giving any extra punishment to the franchise aside from the "regular" tampering penalty would indeed be better.

<!--QuoteBegin-Caillean@Aug 13 2017, 10:48 PM

Those are all insanely good points. As much as I may not like it, this completely put into perspective for me why there need to be harsh team punishments too. Only thing I don't 100% agree on though is the idea that a team punishment may deter people from tampering. Maybe I'm just jaded, but I wouldn't be surprised to see people care less about screwing over a team than themselves- but then again, I'm sure those aren't the kind of people that would want to GM anyway, or at very least hopefully not the kind that would get hired.[/quote]

I'm not exactly an optimist myself but I guess in this case I am a little more hopeful than you are. Most people aren't that much of an asshole that they don't care about the team punishment at all, instead I'd assume that someone like Wally is weighing the risk and the reward somewhat logically, and then decides to go and try the cheating if he deems the likelihood of getting caught and the punishment to be reasonably low. They probably didn't expect the potential punishment to be this severe either, I'd assume that if they had known that this is what they can get hit with, they might not have done it at all. Let's face it, the transgression by itself might not have resulted in such a severe punishment if Wally hadn't worked hard to piss off a lot of people over the last few months and if tweedle hadn't done that stupid podcast thing. In general, I'd argue that team punishments are much more effective than personal punishments, even for people who only seem to care about themselves. At least thats my impression from the last few years, where people didn't seem to care too much about personal suspensions and stuff like that, but were really gutted and remorseful when the punishment was aimed at the team.

daBenchwarmer · 08-14-2017, 02:31 AM

Quote:Originally posted by Nereus@Aug 13 2017, 01:41 PM
then again this is about the team right? not really wally anymore. honestly you should just rebrand portland and give them back their 1st round picks and just punish the shit out of wally and tweedle but im not a genius so

That's our PR plan ðŸ˜‰

Chris-McZehrl · 08-14-2017, 03:41 AM

Quote:Originally posted by daBenchwarmer@Aug 14 2017, 08:31 AM

That's our PR plan ðŸ˜‰

Joester09 · 08-14-2017, 07:48 PM

Quote:Originally posted by daBenchwarmer@Aug 14 2017, 01:31 AM

That's our PR plan ðŸ˜‰

:kings:

Avakael · 09-09-2019, 03:26 AM

09-09-2019, 03:15 AMniki Wrote: snip

what kind of tbt sledge is this you chode

ontanis · 09-09-2019, 04:31 AM

09-09-2019, 03:26 AMAvakael Wrote:
09-09-2019, 03:15 AMniki Wrote: snip

what kind of tbt sledge is this you chode

yeah, that's a bot. first time i'm seeing this fetus here

Baelor Swift · 09-09-2019, 06:08 AM

09-09-2019, 04:31 AMontanis Wrote:
09-09-2019, 03:26 AMAvakael Wrote: what kind of tbt sledge is this you chode

yeah, that's a bot. first time i'm seeing this fetus here