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Baelor Swift · 10-24-2019, 10:45 AM

10-23-2019, 10:15 AMMook Wrote: This would restrict the creativity of builds. Yes, rookies are advised that they shouldn't have defense as a weakness but that doesn't mean we should remove the possibility of having it as a weakness ever

Okay show me any active SHL player with defense as a weakness.

Baelor Swift · 10-24-2019, 10:50 AM

10-23-2019, 12:54 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: I am all for looking at the whole system and deciding if bigger changes are needed, but the reason I bring specifically defense up is that the smjhl interns now put players on hold when they create with defense as a weakness and ask them to talk to a mentor before being approved. The mentors then explain what defense really does in STHS and 99% of members change their weakness before being approved. This is a whole bunch more chasing down of new members when we could just eliminate the option. The other 1% are ones that go inactive anyways.

I just found all the players that are on teams with Defense as a weakness, here they are:
https://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=100115
https://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=91493
https://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=87215
https://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=79523

All 4 are inactive. There are literally 0 active players between both leagues with defense as a weakness.

“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Keygan · 10-24-2019, 10:54 AM

10-23-2019, 12:54 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: I am all for looking at the whole system and deciding if bigger changes are needed, but the reason I bring specifically defense up is that the smjhl interns now put players on hold when they create with defense as a weakness and ask them to talk to a mentor before being approved. The mentors then explain what defense really does in STHS and 99% of members change their weakness before being approved. This is a whole bunch more chasing down of new members when we could just eliminate the option. The other 1% are ones that go inactive anyways.

I just found all the players that are on teams with Defense as a weakness, here they are:
https://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=100115
https://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=91493
https://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=87215
https://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=79523

All 4 are inactive. There are literally 0 active players between both leagues with defense as a weakness.

I’ve had people retire and have to recreate because they didn’t realize how crippling defense was as a weakness, I agree I don’t think it’s fair to have people who know nothing about SimonT to cripple their player because defense effects their ability to play offense.

*Zoone16* · 10-24-2019, 10:59 AM

Should try to do something in the style of the NSFL. Where there are different build archetypes and not all attributes start at 40.

**.bojo** · 10-24-2019, 11:00 AM

10-24-2019, 10:50 AMBaelor Swift Wrote:
10-23-2019, 12:54 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: I am all for looking at the whole system and deciding if bigger changes are needed, but the reason I bring specifically defense up is that the smjhl interns now put players on hold when they create with defense as a weakness and ask them to talk to a mentor before being approved. The mentors then explain what defense really does in STHS and 99% of members change their weakness before being approved. This is a whole bunch more chasing down of new members when we could just eliminate the option. The other 1% are ones that go inactive anyways.

I just found all the players that are on teams with Defense as a weakness, here they are:
https://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=100115
https://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=91493
https://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=87215
https://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=79523

All 4 are inactive. There are literally 0 active players between both leagues with defense as a weakness.

“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

idk if you're just being silly, but I let out an audible groan from this.

caltroit_red_flames · 10-24-2019, 11:10 AM

10-24-2019, 04:02 AMmajesiu Wrote:
10-23-2019, 01:31 PMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote: Do you have any other ideas?

I'd really like something more limiting like PBE has where you have power hitters who can get power to 100 but shit for eye and contact hitters who are all about getting on base but won't be hitting homers.

Crucial difference is in two things:
Archetypes define caps, not just a minor boost to +9 max cap through strengths, but as you mentioned creating identity for players, build diversity is sort of forced by it, since it's impossible for speed and power archs to have same end result, tough builds are rather similar within same archetype, due to lower amount of attributes.

It's impossible to max out the builds - you'll never earn more than 1900 TPE in PBE and to max out all usable stats (so no stuff like bunting) you need ~2250 TPE, so you avoid stagnation of banking/dumping TPE into useless attributes.

Still that require whole overhaul and with league of this size it would require something like two weeks stoppage and monumental updating effort to get everything done, after similarly big effort to design new archs/updating scales etc.

Going back to topic at hand: removing defense as weakness seems to have no downside and doesn't require any time costly overhaul like some other proposals mentioned. Maybe fix the 4 aforementioned players to to fit the new change, but outside of that it's just switching templates used for creating players. Good call.

To me 2 weeks of downtime during the offseason is a totally stomachable amount of time in order to improve the league by a lot. Honestly we have the IIHF that is run separately from the rest of the league. WJC uses pre-playoff builds. If we can grab those pre playoff builds and just artificially extend the amount of time IIHF lasts by not having 2 sims in a single day that gives people something to do during that time. I would personally be happy to join the updating team temporarily to help with this and I'm sure a lot of other members would be too.

Removing defense as a weakness is a good starting point, but the NSFL and PBE have a definitively superior archetype system that SHL should move toward.

Baelor Swift · 10-24-2019, 11:20 AM

10-24-2019, 11:00 AM.bojo Wrote:
10-24-2019, 10:50 AMBaelor Swift Wrote: “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

idk if you're just being silly, but I let out an audible groan from this.

wow I feel insulted that you thought I would use that quote unironically.

**.bojo** · 10-24-2019, 11:32 AM

10-24-2019, 11:20 AMBaelor Swift Wrote:
10-24-2019, 11:00 AM.bojo Wrote: idk if you're just being silly, but I let out an audible groan from this.

wow I feel insulted that you thought I would use that quote unironically.

your name is baelor swift

***WannabeFinn*** · 10-24-2019, 11:35 AM

10-24-2019, 10:59 AMZoone16 Wrote: Should try to do something in the style of the NSFL. Where there are different build archetypes and not all attributes start at 40.

Caltroit and I discussed this yesterday when we talked about a potential archetype overhaul.

Baelor Swift · 10-24-2019, 12:09 PM

10-24-2019, 11:32 AM.bojo Wrote:
10-24-2019, 11:20 AMBaelor Swift Wrote: wow I feel insulted that you thought I would use that quote unironically.

your name is baelor swift

it is

TnlAstatine · 10-24-2019, 12:16 PM

I like this, cause i wanted to make a straight offensive power house and put defense as my weakness, and was told to change it. Seriously tho the "creativity" sucks in this league and player builds honestly need to change.

***DrunkenTeddy*** · 10-24-2019, 03:11 PM

10-24-2019, 12:16 PMTnlAstatine Wrote: I like this, cause i wanted to make a straight offensive power house and put defense as my weakness, and was told to change it. Seriously tho the "creativity" sucks in this league and player builds honestly need to change.

I think the creativity with builds will always suck until the day comes we decide to switch sim engines (If that day ever comes). STHS has a limited set of attributes and many of the attributes don't work the way you'd expect them to. Yeah we could try to make a bunch of build templates that are more limiting or make it really hard to increase attributes up and eliminate the maxed out builds, but eventually people figure out the best build options and everyone starts using those. To me it's STHS that is the bottleneck when it comes to creativity of player builds.

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TnlAstatine · 10-24-2019, 03:35 PM

10-24-2019, 03:11 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote:
10-24-2019, 12:16 PMTnlAstatine Wrote: I like this, cause i wanted to make a straight offensive power house and put defense as my weakness, and was told to change it. Seriously tho the "creativity" sucks in this league and player builds honestly need to change.

I think the creativity with builds will always suck until the day comes we decide to switch sim engines (If that day ever comes). STHS has a limited set of attributes and many of the attributes don't work the way you'd expect them to. Yeah we could try to make a bunch of build templates that are more limiting or make it really hard to increase attributes up and eliminate the maxed out builds, but eventually people figure out the best build options and everyone starts using those. To me it's STHS that is the bottleneck when it comes to creativity of player builds.

If only that pepega devs on that one thing on steam would work a bit harder, they would get our money.

***DrunkenTeddy*** · 10-24-2019, 03:40 PM

10-24-2019, 03:35 PMTnlAstatine Wrote:
10-24-2019, 03:11 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: I think the creativity with builds will always suck until the day comes we decide to switch sim engines (If that day ever comes). STHS has a limited set of attributes and many of the attributes don't work the way you'd expect them to. Yeah we could try to make a bunch of build templates that are more limiting or make it really hard to increase attributes up and eliminate the maxed out builds, but eventually people figure out the best build options and everyone starts using those. To me it's STHS that is the bottleneck when it comes to creativity of player builds.

If only that pepega devs on that one thing on steam would work a bit harder, they would get our money.

Someone, anyone, it really shouldn't be that hard to do better than Simon T.

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caltroit_red_flames · 10-24-2019, 04:00 PM

10-24-2019, 03:40 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote:
10-24-2019, 03:35 PMTnlAstatine Wrote: If only that pepega devs on that one thing on steam would work a bit harder, they would get our money.

Someone, anyone, it really shouldn't be that hard to do better than Simon T.

FHM is so close to being perfect. Do you have 6? Apparently the exports in that are improved but I don't believe the person who told me that. You also can't turn off suspensions...

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