06-03-2020, 08:23 PMTommySalami Wrote:

06-03-2020, 06:45 PMLordBirdman Wrote: I think everyone here needs to understand that most people are not in favor of violent protest and in fact a recent scientific study published in the Journal of Personality and Society found that "extreme protest actions reduce popular support for social movements".  Here is a link to a brief article discussing the study: Link.  Here is a link to the discussion on r/science, where it was recently the top post: Link

Some relevant quotes -

“Social movements face a difficult dilemma: on the one hand a very useful way to get widespread publicity and raise awareness about their cause is to engage in extreme protest behaviors. These behaviors are commonly picked up by the news media and spread on social media. On the other hand, people typically respond negatively to extreme protest behaviors,”

“For instance, activists outraged by the status quo and/or believing that change is largely impossible may engage in extreme protest actions as a form of self-expression or even catharsis without any strategic calculations about the effects such behavior will have in the long-run. Similarly, even if a movement plans to not engage in extreme behaviors, a small number of dissidents in the group may incite extreme actions in others,”

"Taken together with prior research showing that extreme protest actions can be effective for applying pressure to institutions and raising awareness of movements, these findings suggest an activist’s dilemma, in which the same protest actions that may offer certain benefits are also likely to undermine popular support for social movements."

At risk of being labeled a racist and whatever else people want to call me, I just want to again highlight that this is a nuanced issue.  I honestly don't know where I stand and have been soul searching on the topic after my neighborhood was looted and residential buildings were attempted to be set on fire. 

Of course the peaceful protests over the past decades haven't brought the change that we need, but I'm still hesitant to support violence in an "ends justify the means" line of thinking.  Take all of this for what you will, but to say the issue is clear cut is flat out wrong.

Edit:  Reading General Mattis's recent comments are helpful for me to contextualize all of this, specifically "We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values - our values as people and our values as a nation"

The small number of lawbreakers are a distraction and I believe should not be encouraged.

This went on a bit of a tangent so it's not necessarily a direct comment to you anymore.

I'm not a person of colour and I'm not American, so there's absolutely no way I can describe what that population feels right now. However, watching what's happening in the states makes me mad. Seeing what I'm seeing literally evokes feelings of anger that I have no way to express.

I can only imagine what a black person in America feels like.

There is legitimate hurt in the United States and people are experiencing legitimate pain. I hate hearing people say "this is my home and I'm not going to let them destroy it". Do you know how privileged that sounds? It's their homes too and they've lived in fear they're entire lives. Now they've caused you some discomfort and it's too much?

I don't support people looting but I also don't care because it's such a bigger issue than material possessions. If Best Buy and Target are causalities in the fight to end systemic racism, I'd make that sacrifice every time.

I know you said this isn’t directed at just me but I still feel the need to clarify. I don’t give a shit about material possessions being stolen. It does suck that some small business, including minority owned, are going to take a serious hit to their well being but I guess that’s an involuntary sacrifice that they have to accept. 

I care about violence, like the aforementioned attempts to start fires in buildings that double as commercial and residential. One of my friends literally lives next door to one of the fires that thankfully was put out quickly. Maybe I’m more emotionally charged about condemning violence because of this specifically. I understand this pales in comparison to the institutional violence seen by black people in America, but I stand by the point that two wrongs don’t make a right.