Login

DELIRIVM · 06-03-2020, 04:49 PM

06-03-2020, 04:38 PMSlashACM Wrote: How dense do you have to be to think that the looters are doing it in the name of the protests

BDonini · 06-03-2020, 05:46 PM

y'all give this clown the attention he wants every single time

LordBirdman · 06-03-2020, 06:45 PM

I think everyone here needs to understand that most people are not in favor of violent protest and in fact a recent scientific study published in the Journal of Personality and Society found that "extreme protest actions reduce popular support for social movements". Here is a link to a brief article discussing the study: Link. Here is a link to the discussion on r/science, where it was recently the top post: Link

Some relevant quotes -

“Social movements face a difficult dilemma: on the one hand a very useful way to get widespread publicity and raise awareness about their cause is to engage in extreme protest behaviors. These behaviors are commonly picked up by the news media and spread on social media. On the other hand, people typically respond negatively to extreme protest behaviors,”

“For instance, activists outraged by the status quo and/or believing that change is largely impossible may engage in extreme protest actions as a form of self-expression or even catharsis without any strategic calculations about the effects such behavior will have in the long-run. Similarly, even if a movement plans to not engage in extreme behaviors, a small number of dissidents in the group may incite extreme actions in others,”

"Taken together with prior research showing that extreme protest actions can be effective for applying pressure to institutions and raising awareness of movements, these findings suggest an activist’s dilemma, in which the same protest actions that may offer certain benefits are also likely to undermine popular support for social movements."

At risk of being labeled a racist and whatever else people want to call me, I just want to again highlight that this is a nuanced issue. I honestly don't know where I stand and have been soul searching on the topic after my neighborhood was looted and residential buildings were attempted to be set on fire.

Of course the peaceful protests over the past decades haven't brought the change that we need, but I'm still hesitant to support violence in an "ends justify the means" line of thinking. Take all of this for what you will, but to say the issue is clear cut is flat out wrong.

Edit: Reading General Mattis's recent comments are helpful for me to contextualize all of this, specifically "We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values - our values as people and our values as a nation"

The small number of lawbreakers are a distraction and I believe should not be encouraged.

caltroit_red_flames · 06-03-2020, 06:47 PM

06-03-2020, 05:46 PMBDonini Wrote: y'all give this clown the attention he wants every single time

Yeah but I think we're getting to the point where he's such a clown that his options for where to sign in the future are in the single digits if not 0.

Jala · 06-03-2020, 06:53 PM

Some things never change, like Ruutu being on the wrong side of any controversial topic.

*Leppish* · 06-03-2020, 06:54 PM

06-03-2020, 06:47 PMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote:
06-03-2020, 05:46 PMBDonini Wrote: y'all give this clown the attention he wants every single time

Yeah but I think we're getting to the point where he's such a clown that his options for where to sign in the future are in the single digits if not 0.

He may be a clown but at least he donated in the end. So theres some positive.

Carbine · 06-03-2020, 07:11 PM

06-03-2020, 06:45 PMLordBirdman Wrote: I think everyone here needs to understand that most people are not in favor of violent protest and in fact a recent scientific study published in the Journal of Personality and Society found that "extreme protest actions reduce popular support for social movements". Here is a link to a brief article discussing the study: Link. Here is a link to the discussion on r/science, where it was recently the top post: Link

Some relevant quotes -

“Social movements face a difficult dilemma: on the one hand a very useful way to get widespread publicity and raise awareness about their cause is to engage in extreme protest behaviors. These behaviors are commonly picked up by the news media and spread on social media. On the other hand, people typically respond negatively to extreme protest behaviors,”

“For instance, activists outraged by the status quo and/or believing that change is largely impossible may engage in extreme protest actions as a form of self-expression or even catharsis without any strategic calculations about the effects such behavior will have in the long-run. Similarly, even if a movement plans to not engage in extreme behaviors, a small number of dissidents in the group may incite extreme actions in others,”

"Taken together with prior research showing that extreme protest actions can be effective for applying pressure to institutions and raising awareness of movements, these findings suggest an activist’s dilemma, in which the same protest actions that may offer certain benefits are also likely to undermine popular support for social movements."

At risk of being labeled a racist and whatever else people want to call me, I just want to again highlight that this is a nuanced issue. I honestly don't know where I stand and have been soul searching on the topic after my neighborhood was looted and residential buildings were attempted to be set on fire.

Of course the peaceful protests over the past decades haven't brought the change that we need, but I'm still hesitant to support violence in an "ends justify the means" line of thinking. Take all of this for what you will, but to say the issue is clear cut is flat out wrong.

Edit: Reading General Mattis's recent comments are helpful for me to contextualize all of this, specifically "We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values - our values as people and our values as a nation"

The small number of lawbreakers are a distraction and I believe should not be encouraged.

This is literally the only point I wanted to make last night. You can support protests and reject riots and looting - it doesn't make you racist to have that kind of view.

Sean · 06-03-2020, 08:23 PM

06-03-2020, 06:45 PMLordBirdman Wrote: I think everyone here needs to understand that most people are not in favor of violent protest and in fact a recent scientific study published in the Journal of Personality and Society found that "extreme protest actions reduce popular support for social movements". Here is a link to a brief article discussing the study: Link. Here is a link to the discussion on r/science, where it was recently the top post: Link

Some relevant quotes -

“Social movements face a difficult dilemma: on the one hand a very useful way to get widespread publicity and raise awareness about their cause is to engage in extreme protest behaviors. These behaviors are commonly picked up by the news media and spread on social media. On the other hand, people typically respond negatively to extreme protest behaviors,”

“For instance, activists outraged by the status quo and/or believing that change is largely impossible may engage in extreme protest actions as a form of self-expression or even catharsis without any strategic calculations about the effects such behavior will have in the long-run. Similarly, even if a movement plans to not engage in extreme behaviors, a small number of dissidents in the group may incite extreme actions in others,”

"Taken together with prior research showing that extreme protest actions can be effective for applying pressure to institutions and raising awareness of movements, these findings suggest an activist’s dilemma, in which the same protest actions that may offer certain benefits are also likely to undermine popular support for social movements."

At risk of being labeled a racist and whatever else people want to call me, I just want to again highlight that this is a nuanced issue. I honestly don't know where I stand and have been soul searching on the topic after my neighborhood was looted and residential buildings were attempted to be set on fire.

Of course the peaceful protests over the past decades haven't brought the change that we need, but I'm still hesitant to support violence in an "ends justify the means" line of thinking. Take all of this for what you will, but to say the issue is clear cut is flat out wrong.

Edit: Reading General Mattis's recent comments are helpful for me to contextualize all of this, specifically "We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values - our values as people and our values as a nation"

The small number of lawbreakers are a distraction and I believe should not be encouraged.

This went on a bit of a tangent so it's not necessarily a direct comment to you anymore.

I'm not a person of colour and I'm not American, so there's absolutely no way I can describe what that population feels right now. However, watching what's happening in the states makes me mad. Seeing what I'm seeing literally evokes feelings of anger that I have no way to express.

I can only imagine what a black person in America feels like.

There is legitimate hurt in the United States and people are experiencing legitimate pain. I hate hearing people say "this is my home and I'm not going to let them destroy it". Do you know how privileged that sounds? It's their homes too and they've lived in fear they're entire lives. Now they've caused you some discomfort and it's too much?

I don't support people looting but I also don't care because it's such a bigger issue than material possessions. If Best Buy and Target are causalities in the fight to end systemic racism, I'd make that sacrifice every time.

EDM All-Time Leader in Goals, Assists and Points

Loco · 06-03-2020, 08:29 PM

if you guys really have this opinion i'd ask you to watch this.

@jRuutu i really suggest you watch this

LordBirdman · 06-03-2020, 08:57 PM

06-03-2020, 08:23 PMTommySalami Wrote:
06-03-2020, 06:45 PMLordBirdman Wrote: I think everyone here needs to understand that most people are not in favor of violent protest and in fact a recent scientific study published in the Journal of Personality and Society found that "extreme protest actions reduce popular support for social movements". Here is a link to a brief article discussing the study: Link. Here is a link to the discussion on r/science, where it was recently the top post: Link

Some relevant quotes -

“Social movements face a difficult dilemma: on the one hand a very useful way to get widespread publicity and raise awareness about their cause is to engage in extreme protest behaviors. These behaviors are commonly picked up by the news media and spread on social media. On the other hand, people typically respond negatively to extreme protest behaviors,”

“For instance, activists outraged by the status quo and/or believing that change is largely impossible may engage in extreme protest actions as a form of self-expression or even catharsis without any strategic calculations about the effects such behavior will have in the long-run. Similarly, even if a movement plans to not engage in extreme behaviors, a small number of dissidents in the group may incite extreme actions in others,”

"Taken together with prior research showing that extreme protest actions can be effective for applying pressure to institutions and raising awareness of movements, these findings suggest an activist’s dilemma, in which the same protest actions that may offer certain benefits are also likely to undermine popular support for social movements."

At risk of being labeled a racist and whatever else people want to call me, I just want to again highlight that this is a nuanced issue. I honestly don't know where I stand and have been soul searching on the topic after my neighborhood was looted and residential buildings were attempted to be set on fire.

Of course the peaceful protests over the past decades haven't brought the change that we need, but I'm still hesitant to support violence in an "ends justify the means" line of thinking. Take all of this for what you will, but to say the issue is clear cut is flat out wrong.

Edit: Reading General Mattis's recent comments are helpful for me to contextualize all of this, specifically "We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values - our values as people and our values as a nation"

The small number of lawbreakers are a distraction and I believe should not be encouraged.

This went on a bit of a tangent so it's not necessarily a direct comment to you anymore.

I'm not a person of colour and I'm not American, so there's absolutely no way I can describe what that population feels right now. However, watching what's happening in the states makes me mad. Seeing what I'm seeing literally evokes feelings of anger that I have no way to express.

I can only imagine what a black person in America feels like.

There is legitimate hurt in the United States and people are experiencing legitimate pain. I hate hearing people say "this is my home and I'm not going to let them destroy it". Do you know how privileged that sounds? It's their homes too and they've lived in fear they're entire lives. Now they've caused you some discomfort and it's too much?

I don't support people looting but I also don't care because it's such a bigger issue than material possessions. If Best Buy and Target are causalities in the fight to end systemic racism, I'd make that sacrifice every time.

I know you said this isn’t directed at just me but I still feel the need to clarify. I don’t give a shit about material possessions being stolen. It does suck that some small business, including minority owned, are going to take a serious hit to their well being but I guess that’s an involuntary sacrifice that they have to accept.

I care about violence, like the aforementioned attempts to start fires in buildings that double as commercial and residential. One of my friends literally lives next door to one of the fires that thankfully was put out quickly. Maybe I’m more emotionally charged about condemning violence because of this specifically. I understand this pales in comparison to the institutional violence seen by black people in America, but I stand by the point that two wrongs don’t make a right.

***artermis*** · 06-03-2020, 11:24 PM

You know

I was gonna post a somewhat lengthy post of why I feel where Ruutu's coming from, but after reading a little in the first page I realize that discussion is long over and we've fallen back into the SHL's classic tendencies of getting emotional and just trash-talking for hours, so I gave up on that. I then began to write a 2nd, shorter post on why I'd be doing a shorter post and gave up after writing a bit of that too.

Instead, I present to you a tl:dr of the first post I didn't finish:

yay protests, boo riots

and now, the second post:

Ruutu's posts bad, responses to Ruutu's post bad

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk

***artermis*** · 06-03-2020, 11:26 PM

Also shoutout to @LordBirdman for actually trying to create something from this trashcan of a thread

jRuutu · 06-04-2020, 03:55 AM

06-03-2020, 06:54 PMLeppish Wrote:
06-03-2020, 06:47 PMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote: Yeah but I think we're getting to the point where he's such a clown that his options for where to sign in the future are in the single digits if not 0.

He may be a clown but at least he donated in the end. So theres some positive.

I might be a clown, but I´m a clown with a kind heart and a open mind.

06-03-2020, 06:45 PMLordBirdman Wrote: I think everyone here needs to understand that most people are not in favor of violent protest and in fact a recent scientific study published in the Journal of Personality and Society found that "extreme protest actions reduce popular support for social movements". Here is a link to a brief article discussing the study: Link. Here is a link to the discussion on r/science, where it was recently the top post: Link

Some relevant quotes -

“Social movements face a difficult dilemma: on the one hand a very useful way to get widespread publicity and raise awareness about their cause is to engage in extreme protest behaviors. These behaviors are commonly picked up by the news media and spread on social media. On the other hand, people typically respond negatively to extreme protest behaviors,”

“For instance, activists outraged by the status quo and/or believing that change is largely impossible may engage in extreme protest actions as a form of self-expression or even catharsis without any strategic calculations about the effects such behavior will have in the long-run. Similarly, even if a movement plans to not engage in extreme behaviors, a small number of dissidents in the group may incite extreme actions in others,”

"Taken together with prior research showing that extreme protest actions can be effective for applying pressure to institutions and raising awareness of movements, these findings suggest an activist’s dilemma, in which the same protest actions that may offer certain benefits are also likely to undermine popular support for social movements."

At risk of being labeled a racist and whatever else people want to call me, I just want to again highlight that this is a nuanced issue. I honestly don't know where I stand and have been soul searching on the topic after my neighborhood was looted and residential buildings were attempted to be set on fire.

Of course the peaceful protests over the past decades haven't brought the change that we need, but I'm still hesitant to support violence in an "ends justify the means" line of thinking. Take all of this for what you will, but to say the issue is clear cut is flat out wrong.

Edit: Reading General Mattis's recent comments are helpful for me to contextualize all of this, specifically "We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values - our values as people and our values as a nation"

The small number of lawbreakers are a distraction and I believe should not be encouraged.

The protests are large and a lot of people are involved, but it honestly has looked like the lawbreakers are more than just a distraction, there is a lot of them as well. Of course that could be just media and social media at its worst, but still.

I indeed donated some yesterday, for example one of the places I donated was to help families who had the whole apartment building where they live in burned to the ground, 8 families lost their home. Whole place burned to the ground, did that change something? I don´t think so. I did not realize they are burning homes as well, that is next level and waaaayyyy too much.

Originally I failed to understand the logic behind it all, still struggle, but after reading material provided to me, I´m willing to admit that the issues run deep in America, but even then burning down apartment buildings? Jesus.

majesiu · 06-04-2020, 05:33 AM

06-03-2020, 04:38 PMSlashACM Wrote: How dense do you have to be to think that the looters are doing it in the name of the protests

Well, some publicist like NYT's Nikole Hannah-Jones that are supportive of the protesters aren't helping here:

Quote:HANNAH-JONES: [...] I mean, this is the thing. You are asking people whose communities have been looted for decades, who don't have proper schools, who don't have proper amenities, who have been -- when we see someone killed by the police, that is the worst manifestation of police violence, but it doesn't get to the daily police violence that doesn't end in death, the daily degradations that black Americans face, the fact that these communities have been preyed upon by predatory lenders.
It goes on and on. And so, when we think about someone taking an act to take something from some big box name store, it is symbolic. That one pair of shoes that you have stolen from Foot Locker is not going to change your life, but it is a symbolic taking.

Source

Also, please don't label me just for providing some context - I believe systematic racism is big issue not just in the US and my PolitiScale is literally Equality/Humanity/Socialism.
To give some additional perspective how the recent events are perceived outside the US in the Poland - the most it was talked about was when Kościuszko's monument was vandalized during riots (btw. he was not only a war hero both in the US during American Revolutionary War and later in Poland, but left in his will instructions to sell all his properties in the US and use money to free Jefferson slaves and educate them - sadly those were never used in that way...). We also had single march of support for BLM (organized by left-leaning youth organization), which was perceived rather indifferently since while we have other equality issues here (centered mostly about conflict Catholic Church/Conservatives vs LGBT+) the systematic racism isn't one of them, even aforementioned EU report by @Baelor Swift didn't name Poland there at all.

Still, while there is a lot of justified rage I barely see any constructive proposals how to fix this unjust situation. This was literally only thing I encountered: https://www.reddit.com/r/coolguides/comm...brutality/ - which tbh I'm quite shocked to see aren't a thing regulated by federal law already, definitely those are things worth fighting for. While not condoning violence (especially since often innocent people are getting hurt & their lifetime achievements are getting destroyed) we have plenty of historical examples of issues that weren't solved before public outrage & riots after c peaceful measures failed short - whether it was suffrage movement, stopping senseless war in Vietnam, fall of communism in Eastern Europe or Arab Spring just to name a few.

suavemente · 06-04-2020, 10:24 AM

06-03-2020, 04:49 PMDELIRIVM Wrote:

This is the wrong take. Stop being funny, people are losing lives.
This is not about your politics or your opinions. This is literally life and death.
[Image: 5ed6c66640bf7.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C791]

[Image: 5ed6c66640bf7.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C791]

He was a black man, his name was David Dorn, 77, and he got shot 3 times in the chest by looters trying to ransack his family business. He lay bleeding out of the cement because police and EMS were too tied up to to reach him. Some these looters (if arrested) may be receiving the money you are donating. Donate your time to help communities and make real change, not to help tear them apart and then turn around take a fucking screenshot and say "hey look i fixed institutional world wide racism"

Navigation

Extra Menu

About us