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Duff101 · 04-11-2023, 03:50 PM

04-11-2023, 03:33 PMleafsftw1967 Wrote: I appreciate your input and agree that it would be important not to further damage the Fed Head's/players' ability to succeed in the IHF while finding a way to remove Russia's symbolism that represents a lot of messed up things.

I expressed that kind of as a more general opinion on why it’s not as easy as just changing a name, but I would also add that I think there is a little more to this than just removing Russia because they are bad. In the modern world, where you’re from is to some extent part of your identity. I am sure the vast majority of us have had the privilege of not living under real authoritarianism or living in a society where propaganda pervades nearly every part of life (I dont want to hear how america is like this because it isn’t) so it’s hard to understand that Russian people aren’t monolithic just because they aren’t all collectively taking up arms and heading for the hills. Playing for Russia can mean more than playing for Putin and the current regime.

I’d like to add an addendum that the whole OAR thing felt like a performative nonpunishment in the real world so I would be kinda opposed to that here on similar grounds.
Also wasn’t that for cheating?

Credit to Geck, Ragnar and Juni for sigs

steveoiscool · 04-11-2023, 03:58 PM

04-11-2023, 03:35 PMleafsftw1967 Wrote: We have policies in place to prevent any sort of racism, sexism and other forms of discriminatory symbolism from being associated with the "fantasy" league of the SHL. Would you consider that silly? SHL player names have been removed (a prime example is Name Redacted), we have had SHL members in the past suspended for using discriminatory symbolism (ex: the use of the swastika) and have added policies like having personal pronouns displayed for each member in a "fantasy" league to make it a more inclusive environment. These are all prime examples of how the SHL has blended the real world with "fantasy" and would like to ask if you think that is silly?

Why should the league take a different approach to inclusivity and making the league a safe place for all when Russian symbolism is threatening to people of Ukrainian identity? Would you think it is a weird hill to die on if people with the Russian flag and symbolism are trying to kill your extended family, committing war crimes against people of your culture, trying to eradicate your personal identity and bombing a place you see as your ancestral home? Honestly I don't expect people to fully understand unless you are in a position where you feel threatened or discriminated against, just as I cannot fully understand how a woman experiences the negative influences of sexism or people of colour experience racist symbolism or LGBTQ people experience discrimination. In addition, the real world has taken action against the "Russian hockey powerhouse" while considering its historical dominance in the sport as the International Ice Hockey Federation have indefinitely banned Russia from any sort of international hockey competitions. Whether you like to admit it or not real world discriminatory/threatening symbolism can have an extremely negative impact on members of a "fantasy" league.

There were efforts made to try and address this issue when Russia's war in Ukraine first broke out and it didn't really amount to much which is why I think it is important to have this discussion more publicly now.

No offense, but this is kind of a ridiculous stance to take. A place of origin is not comparable in the least to examples of racism, sexism, or discrimination. We can continue to treat names and bad faith actors on a case by case basis (such as Name Redacted, or others) without having a heavy handed approach to an entire federation and core part of hockey. Are Igor Larionov or Pavel Datsyuk renders off limits now, cause they could illicit feelings towards present day Russia? Is RISK a dangerous game to let children play? Should we ban America for (most recently) it's stances on allowing transgender athletes to compete (or exist, really)? There's a degree of separation between the SHL and the real world and when you try to combine the two it just doesn't work out.

Duff101 · 04-11-2023, 03:58 PM

04-11-2023, 03:45 PMHenrik Wrote: So change it to the OAR like what was done in the 2018 Olympics. I really don't see how this is a lose lose situation. The fed and sim gets to distance themselves from real world issues that has touched hundreds of millions of people, including users on this sub, and users that still want to create russian players can still do so.

The OAR thing felt pointless to me in 2018 and continues to do so now. What does it actually change? What is the point? How does this support Ukraine? I’m not asking these rhetorically I genuinely want answers.
Also, I guess I just don’t see how changing to OAR somehow would all of the sudden lead to people creating for Russia again. The damage is kinda done in that regard.

Credit to Geck, Ragnar and Juni for sigs

Duff101 · 04-11-2023, 04:04 PM

04-11-2023, 03:58 PMsteveoiscool Wrote: No offense, but this is kind of a ridiculous stance to take. A place of origin is not comparable in the least to examples of racism, sexism, or discrimination. We can continue to treat names and bad faith actors on a case by case basis (such as Name Redacted, or others) without having a heavy handed approach to an entire federation and core part of hockey. Are Igor Larionov or Pavel Datsyuk renders off limits now, cause they could illicit feelings towards present day Russia? Is RISK a dangerous game to let children play? Should we ban America for (most recently) it's stances on allowing transgender athletes to compete (or exist, really)? There's a degree of separation between the SHL and the real world and when you try to combine the two it just doesn't work out.

I mean fuck (sorry to drag your fed into this too) why stop there it’s not like Britain is some shining beacon of ethics and values either and also has some territories that people would consider illegally taken or occupied.

I think bringing real life countries into this kinda just muddies the waters like we’re seeing here.

Credit to Geck, Ragnar and Juni for sigs

Henrik · 04-11-2023, 04:08 PM

04-11-2023, 03:50 PMDuff101 Wrote: I expressed that kind of as a more general opinion on why it’s not as easy as just changing a name, but I would also add that I think there is a little more to this than just removing Russia because they are bad. In the modern world, where you’re from is to some extent part of your identity. I am sure the vast majority of us have had the privilege of not living under real authoritarianism or living in a society where propaganda pervades nearly every part of life (I dont want to hear how america is like this because it isn’t) so it’s hard to understand that Russian people aren’t monolithic just because they aren’t all collectively taking up arms and heading for the hills. Playing for Russia can mean more than playing for Putin and the current regime.

I’d like to add an addendum that the whole OAR thing felt like a performative nonpunishment in the real world so I would be kinda opposed to that here on similar grounds.
Also wasn’t that for cheating?

It was previously for doping, yes, but that does not mean that it isn't applicable in other ways. It was a way for non-doping athletes to still compete for both themselves and their nation without the baggage of what competing under the russian flag meant which seems to be like what you are trying to achieve. The OAR tag is meant to represent just the people, not the government, and still give them the ability to compete without crediting a nation who is breaking international law, purposely murdering civilians and actively threatening the world with nuclear war just to name a few of the things they have been up to recently (and none of this is new by the way. See Syria before Ukraine, Georgia before that and Chechnya before that TWICE).

I don't buy this whole 'what doors will it open?' or 'Its not that easy' arguement that I keep hearing. Its pretty cut and dry. As previously mentioned, we dont allow people to represent other hateful groups (governments or otherwise) so why should we make an exception for Russia?

***HabsFanFromOntario*** · 04-11-2023, 04:09 PM

04-11-2023, 02:10 PMDuff101 Wrote: I know I'm no longer involved in the fed in any official leadership capacity but I'd like to pipe in here at the very least as a member of the fed who was at one point the head I'd like to chime in.

We're in kind of a tough spot here, because both situations have a negative outcome. What Russia is doing right now is unequivocally wrong and evil, and it does feel wrong to continue to fly those colors. But at the same time, a change of this magnitude is pretty much unprecedented here. I don't want to use this as an excuse because people's lives and livelihoods are far more important than the fate of a fake hockey team, but all I'm asking is to hear me out.

The only time I can remember (and granted I am much less active now than I used to be) a fed changing countries was the Austria -> France change. This was accompanied by a clause that allowed existing players who created for Austria to remain unlocked for a period of time. Now if Russia were to change, you can either implement this or not. If you do, players could transfer out which wouldn't help the fed and feels a little unfair to our new head, and if you don't it feels unfair to players who have little/no input or control over what fed they now play for. I think it's important to remember that despite our team name and colors, we are not an extension of Putin, Russia, the Russian MoD, Wagner Group or any number of groups and people from Russia and elsewhere committing atrocities in Ukraine. We are a bunch of people who either made our fake hockey players from there (in some cases predating the invasion). I can't speak for everyone, but I imagine you would be hard pressed to find an unironic supporter of Putin or Russia's actions in our fed.

That being said I am not necessarily opposed to a name change, but I am opposed to one that risks further damaging the fed that I do feel somewhat of a personal connection to. The invasion has already not been good for our image and player count, and I fear that this would only make things worse either way. Frankly, I'm kinda asking HO for some sort of out here that lets everyone be satisfied.

Finland and Sweden interchanged like 6 times in the early seasons.

steveoiscool · 04-11-2023, 04:10 PM

04-11-2023, 04:04 PMDuff101 Wrote: I mean fuck (sorry to drag your fed into this too) why stop there it’s not like Britain is some shining beacon of ethics and values either and also has some territories that people would consider illegally taken or occupied.

I think bringing real life countries into this kinda just muddies the waters like we’re seeing here.

I'll hook you right in the gabber mate (also that's basically what I was trying to say in a lot less words, thank you)

PremierBromanov · 04-11-2023, 04:16 PM

04-11-2023, 04:04 PMDuff101 Wrote: I mean fuck (sorry to drag your fed into this too) why stop there it’s not like Britain is some shining beacon of ethics and values either and also has some territories that people would consider illegally taken or occupied.

I think bringing real life countries into this kinda just muddies the waters like we’re seeing here.

We prefer not to comment

**leafsftw1967** · 04-11-2023, 04:20 PM

04-11-2023, 03:58 PMsteveoiscool Wrote: No offense, but this is kind of a ridiculous stance to take. A place of origin is not comparable in the least to examples of racism, sexism, or discrimination. We can continue to treat names and bad faith actors on a case by case basis (such as Name Redacted, or others) without having a heavy handed approach to an entire federation and core part of hockey. Are Igor Larionov or Pavel Datsyuk renders off limits now, cause they could illicit feelings towards present day Russia? Is RISK a dangerous game to let children play? Should we ban America for (most recently) it's stances on allowing transgender athletes to compete (or exist, really)? There's a degree of separation between the SHL and the real world and when you try to combine the two it just doesn't work out.

I think something that you don't understand is that this is bigger player renders (which honestly doesn't matter because Igor Larionov or Pavel Datsyuk are not the symbols of Russia's genocide) or anything hockey related. None of that matters my point is that when I see the Russian flag it makes me sick to my stomach because of all of the messed up things they are doing and it's not a comfortable feeling to see on the SHL site. If you think that is ridiculous then shame on you.

The point is that the Russian flag represents oppression, genocide and discrimination against millions of Ukrainians. The Oxford Dictionary defines discrimination as "the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of ethnicity, age, sex, or disability." I think it is just plain wrong for you to call it a "ridiculous stance to take" when millions of Ukrainians are threatened with rape, torture, and death and the main point of Russia's war in Ukraine is to eradicate Ukrainian identity and make it part of Russia. If that is something you think we should affiliate the SHL with when thousands of businesses, sporting events and other entities have disassociated themselves from Russia and the world has recognized and reacted to the atrocities that Russia is committing in Ukraine then that is pretty messed up. At the end of the day, Ukrainian ethnicity has been and is continuing to be systemically attacked by Russia which is what the Russian flag and emblem represent. For these reasons I think it is not a symbol that should be associated with the morals and code of ethics the SHL has promoted.

steveoiscool · 04-11-2023, 04:27 PM

04-11-2023, 04:20 PMleafsftw1967 Wrote: If that is something you think we should affiliate the SHL with when thousands of businesses, sporting events and other entities have disassociated themselves from Russia and the world has recognized and reacted to the atrocities that Russia is committing in Ukraine then that is pretty messed up. At the end of the day, Ukrainian ethnicity has been and is continuing to be systemically attacked by Russia which is what the Russian flag and emblem represent. For these reasons I think it is not a symbol that should be associated with the morals and code of ethics the SHL has promoted.

I don't. Good thing the real world Russia is shit, and our Russia has ducks playing defense.

PremierBromanov · 04-11-2023, 04:31 PM

04-11-2023, 04:08 PMHenrik Wrote: It was previously for doping, yes, but that does not mean that it isn't applicable in other ways. It was a way for non-doping athletes to still compete for both themselves and their nation without the baggage of what competing under the russian flag meant which seems to be like what you are trying to achieve. The OAR tag is meant to represent just the people, not the government, and still give them the ability to compete without crediting a nation who is breaking international law, purposely murdering civilians and actively threatening the world with nuclear war just to name a few of the things they have been up to recently (and none of this is new by the way. See Syria before the Ukraine, Georgia before that and Chechnya before that TWICE).

I don't buy this whole 'what doors will it open?' or 'Its not that easy' arguement that I keep hearing. Its pretty cut and dry. As previously mentioned, we dont allow people to represent other hateful groups (governments or otherwise) so why should we make an exception for Russia?

Henrik you know i love you so please take this in all seriousness and kindness.

This sword cuts both ways. Most of the big players in this world are committing atrocities on a daily basis. Calling it "whataboutism" isn't an argument (not that you have said it, but it's on the tips of tongues). This isn't even distant past. The United States killed millions in the middle east (with support from European countries). We are currently starving millions of Afghanis. We can point to any country and find massive skeletons. The point here isn't that we can't do anything because if we do it to one we have to do it to all. It just represents to me that people care more about this particular atrocity because they're European victims. And that really cuts me. It's selective outrage. And let's be serious, what is more inclusive than welcoming Russian users and players? Are Russians like... Dogshit or something?

We have such a laser focused hatred against the east and that hatred really does manifest itself in real ways, especially towards people from Asian companies.

It just feels like such a narrow, enclosed point of view to want to banish a country (and let's be honest with ourselves). If Russia becomes depleted, then so be it. It happened many times before. But it is not right for us to be the arbiters of what countries are good and proper. Am i meant to stop business with our contractors who are from Russia, or belarus? Or what about me, named after a goofy soviet from a video game?

There's a right and a wrong way to represent any country. Look no further than John Brown. A true American Patriot. Again, we should be vigilant of people engaging in the Russian larp in a hurtful way, not broad strokes eliminating groups of people.

**leafsftw1967** · 04-11-2023, 04:34 PM

04-11-2023, 04:27 PMsteveoiscool Wrote: I don't. Good thing the real world Russia is shit, and our Russia has ducks playing defense.

So if it's just fantasy to you and does not impact you, why would considering removing the Russian flag and logos due to other members' legitimate feelings of uncomfortableness around them be an issue?

Henrik · 04-11-2023, 04:35 PM

04-11-2023, 04:04 PMDuff101 Wrote: I mean fuck (sorry to drag your fed into this too) why stop there it’s not like Britain is some shining beacon of ethics and values either and also has some territories that people would consider illegally taken or occupied.

I think bringing real life countries into this kinda just muddies the waters like we’re seeing here.

Its pretty simple really. Britain isn't engaged in an illegal offensive war. Britain isn't purposely targeting innocent men, women and children with missiles in their homes. Britain isn't stealing kids from their parents. Britain isn't executing civilian populations and burying them in mass graves or burning them in mobile crematoriums. Britain isn't actively torturing civilians. The list goes on.

You can argue all you want that no nation is perfect and everyone has a few skeletons in their closets, and you are correct. But they are skeletons, not fresh corpses. This isn't something that happened 350 or 150 or even 80 years ago, this is happening now. Its not only unfair to compare but its outright fallacious to suggest that what is happening in Ukraine today is in any way the same as what was done in the distant past. And the fact that you are flippantly trying to defend it is for doing so is, frankly, disgusting.

***boom*** · 04-11-2023, 04:37 PM

04-11-2023, 03:33 PMleafsftw1967 Wrote: I appreciate your input and agree that it would be important not to further damage the Fed Head's/players' ability to succeed in the IHF while finding a way to remove Russia's symbolism that represents a lot of messed up things.

I wonder how effective the "Independent Athletes of Russia" thing that the IOC/IIHF does would be here. It's kind of a kludge and has been (not without merit) called out in real life for just papering over the issue, but I wonder how the context online being different could work.

Just thinking out loud here.

Duff101 · 04-11-2023, 04:40 PM

04-11-2023, 04:31 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: Henrik you know i love you so please take this in all seriousness and kindness.

This sword cuts both ways. Most of the big players in this world are committing atrocities on a daily basis. Calling it "whataboutism" isn't an argument (not that you have said it, but it's on the tips of tongues). This isn't even distant past. The United States killed millions in the middle east (with support from European countries). We are currently starving millions of Afghanis. We can point to any country and find massive skeletons. The point here isn't that we can't do anything because if we do it to one we have to do it to all. It just represents to me that people care more about this particular atrocity because they're European victims. And that really cuts me. It's selective outrage. And let's be serious, what is more inclusive than welcoming Russian users and players? Are Russians like... Dogshit or something?

We have such a laser focused hatred against the east and that hatred really does manifest itself in real ways, especially towards people from Asian companies.

It just feels like such a narrow, enclosed point of view to want to banish a country (and let's be honest with ourselves). If Russia becomes depleted, then so be it. It happened many times before. But it is not right for us to be the arbiters of what countries are good and proper. Am i meant to stop business with our contractors who are from Russia, or belarus? Or what about me, named after a goofy soviet from a video game?

There's a right and a wrong way to represent any country. Look no further than John Brown. A true American Patriot. Again, we should be vigilant of people engaging in the Russian larp in a hurtful way, not broad strokes eliminating groups of people.

Yes, if anything a big potential annoyance and honestly my biggest reservation about keeping the name is that now Russia has to filter out edgelords, but they generally seem to be easy enough to find and yeet.

I do think the player render line of thinking raises some interesting conundrums. Like sure a Putin render is probably off limits but what about like Slava Fetisov? He’s a good hockey player and someone who people have positive feelings for but he is also currently a political ally of Putin and a Russian legislator. How do you handle other close political allies or friends of Putin or Russia like Ovechkin or even non-hockey players like Connor MacGregor and Steven Seagal? (if nobody has made a render as him PLEASE do it but it has to be when hes fat)

Credit to Geck, Ragnar and Juni for sigs

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