08-20-2018, 08:23 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Ugh, I know this is indeed working well in other leagues, but I'm not a fan of implementing this here to be quite honest. Allowing people to get pretty close to maxing out over the course of their careers while basically being able to half-ass things is a massive change to this leagues structure, a bigger one I think than people are realizing. I enjoy leagues like the GOMHL or the SCOR for their more casual feel but the SHL is not that, and it shouldn't be that either. It's the premium product, the one where you have to put in the most work but where in return the results are most rewarding and I think we'd be better served to keep it that way. That doesn't mean that there can't be changes to make lifes easier for the members around here, but for a long time now there have basically been two things in this league that set apart semi-actives and super actives, and that's PTs and Equipment. Damaging the integrity of one of these two foundations without a clear need to is not a good idea imho.
I would argue this league was considered pretty damn casual up until the most recent update scale was implemented.
Also, fuck this update scale. The old one has always been better.
Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)* *All-Time Leader Among All Skaters Player Profile | Update Thread
08-20-2018, 09:20 PMSchultzy Wrote: I have always encouraged change and the need to adapt. This isn't it. This is what leagues with 20 members do. It shouldn't be what we do. If they want to use our PT for their league then by all means, but why should we reward work not done in our league for only a few semi actives? Its not the direction the SHL should be going.
I'm not sure if this is it either, but a 1-season trial isn't going to kill anyone. If it doesn't work out, you damn well better believe I'll be one of the first people calling for it to be ended.
As far as "using our PT for their league," that's not how this works. We had discussed potentially giving a single additional uncapped TPE for people who do the SHL PT, but that was pretty quickly a point of no discussion with the other leagues, which is fair.
I think it's worth a shot seeing as it's a trial, as the reward seems much greater than the risk (growth vs. some semi-actives getting 18 capped TPE). However, I do agree with some of the sentiments brought up by RED in the case it doesn't bring in many more members.
08-20-2018, 08:23 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Ugh, I know this is indeed working well in other leagues, but I'm not a fan of implementing this here to be quite honest. Allowing people to get pretty close to maxing out over the course of their careers while basically being able to half-ass things is a massive change to this leagues structure, a bigger one I think than people are realizing. I enjoy leagues like the GOMHL or the SCOR for their more casual feel but the SHL is not that, and it shouldn't be that either. It's the premium product, the one where you have to put in the most work but where in return the results are most rewarding and I think we'd be better served to keep it that way. That doesn't mean that there can't be changes to make lifes easier for the members around here, but for a long time now there have basically been two things in this league that set apart semi-actives and super actives, and that's PTs and Equipment. Damaging the integrity of one of these two foundations without a clear need to is not a good idea imho.
I would argue this league was considered pretty damn casual up until the most recent update scale was implemented.
Also, fuck this update scale. The old one has always been better.
I don't think it was much more casual before actually but even if it was it wasn't nearly as casual as some other leagues like the aforementioned GOMHL or SCOR are nowadays, where you basically don't have to write anything at all and still gain close to max TPE. And that's fine because these leagues were created with the mission statement to be good side leagues, to be casual and don't require much, if any, work at all. But that's not what the SHL is or has ever been in the past.
Just like Schultzy, this doesn't mean that I'm against change. I just want better change . And just to adress Eggy's post very quickly, the thing is that we won't be able to evaluate it's effects after just a season, it will take much longer than that. After a season we might have barely any new sign-ups, then the argument could be that there just wasn't enough time to see the benefits, or we could have a bunch of new members, but we'd have no idea if they stay active long-term and/or become actual contributing members of the community. It will probably take a good 3-4 seasons at least to be able to properly evaluate this and by then we'll already be knee-deep into this and it will be much harder to cancel or fix if it doesn't work.
08-20-2018, 09:17 PMSchultzy Wrote: I disagree. As a GM you're more inclined to give your budget to a guy you know will spend it on training each week rather than someone who just might. A person who is heavily invested in a different league and spends no time on the SHL is now more valuable to the SHL than a standard semi active member. GMs now need to know what other leagues members play in as it now determines their SHL value.
You forget that players have been paid by contract alone more than they could spend on training and equipment alone. It does happen. It can happen. So a full active member of the SHL will likely not only take a pay cut but will now have to work harder and have less value than a guy who plays full time in another league.
How is that not a broken system?
I would like you to go through the budget and look at the contracts for everyone in the league and point to me one single person who makes 14.5M enough to buy both training and equipment. The absolute max you see is 6-7M
08-20-2018, 09:20 PMSchultzy Wrote: I have always encouraged change and the need to adapt. This isn't it. This is what leagues with 20 members do. It shouldn't be what we do. If they want to use our PT for their league then by all means, but why should we reward work not done in our league for only a few semi actives? Its not the direction the SHL should be going.
I'm not sure if this is it either, but a 1-season trial isn't going to kill anyone. If it doesn't work out, you damn well better believe I'll be one of the first people calling for it to be ended.
As far as "using our PT for their league," that's not how this works. We had discussed potentially giving a single additional uncapped TPE for people who do the SHL PT, but that was pretty quickly a point of no discussion with the other leagues, which is fair.
08-20-2018, 09:38 PMCarbine Wrote: Yayaayaya I can be good in PBE nao
And if it makes some of you feel better, I prefer the PT's here and will likely do the normal work here, letting me save time in the PBE and end up paying more attention here. I'm sure it'll be different for others and there are valid concerns but I think this will work out for everyone
08-20-2018, 09:38 PMCarbine Wrote: Yayaayaya I can be good in PBE nao
And if it makes some of you feel better, I prefer the PT's here and will likely do the normal work here, letting me save time in the PBE and end up paying more attention here. I'm sure it'll be different for others and there are valid concerns but I think this will work out for everyone
08-20-2018, 08:23 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Ugh, I know this is indeed working well in other leagues, but I'm not a fan of implementing this here to be quite honest. Allowing people to get pretty close to maxing out over the course of their careers while basically being able to half-ass things is a massive change to this leagues structure, a bigger one I think than people are realizing. I enjoy leagues like the GOMHL or the SCOR for their more casual feel but the SHL is not that, and it shouldn't be that either. It's the premium product, the one where you have to put in the most work but where in return the results are most rewarding and I think we'd be better served to keep it that way. That doesn't mean that there can't be changes to make lifes easier for the members around here, but for a long time now there have basically been two things in this league that set apart semi-actives and super actives, and that's PTs and Equipment. Damaging the integrity of one of these two foundations without a clear need to is not a good idea imho.
I would argue this league was considered pretty damn casual up until the most recent update scale was implemented.
Also, fuck this update scale. The old one has always been better.
I don't think it was much more casual before actually but even if it was it wasn't nearly as casual as some other leagues like the aforementioned GOMHL or SCOR are nowadays, where you basically don't have to write anything at all and still gain close to max TPE. And that's fine because these leagues were created with the mission statement to be good side leagues, to be casual and don't require much, if any, work at all. But that's not what the SHL is or has ever been in the past.
Just like Schultzy, this doesn't mean that I'm against change. I just want better change .
Sorry if my response implied you were against change. Not at all what I was trying to say.
My opinion is that I think other than providing an incentive for people to "do work" on this site, PTs provide nothing to the health of this site. Nobody reads them, they are incredibly boring to actually complete, and in the end it can contribute to people feeling "burnt out" and giving up prematurely. If by reducing the amount of PTs done in all leagues (this one included) means there is more potential traffic and active posters driven to this site, I am all for it. I am willing to sacrifice PT contribution for the sake of more beneficial activity (media, thunderdomes, community, etc.). And I say that as someone who is really only active on this site.
Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)* *All-Time Leader Among All Skaters Player Profile | Update Thread
08-20-2018, 10:03 PM(This post was last modified: 08-20-2018, 10:07 PM by RomanesEuntDomus.)
08-20-2018, 09:46 PMArGarBarGar Wrote:
08-20-2018, 09:35 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote:
08-20-2018, 09:25 PMArGarBarGar Wrote:
08-20-2018, 08:23 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Ugh, I know this is indeed working well in other leagues, but I'm not a fan of implementing this here to be quite honest. Allowing people to get pretty close to maxing out over the course of their careers while basically being able to half-ass things is a massive change to this leagues structure, a bigger one I think than people are realizing. I enjoy leagues like the GOMHL or the SCOR for their more casual feel but the SHL is not that, and it shouldn't be that either. It's the premium product, the one where you have to put in the most work but where in return the results are most rewarding and I think we'd be better served to keep it that way. That doesn't mean that there can't be changes to make lifes easier for the members around here, but for a long time now there have basically been two things in this league that set apart semi-actives and super actives, and that's PTs and Equipment. Damaging the integrity of one of these two foundations without a clear need to is not a good idea imho.
I would argue this league was considered pretty damn casual up until the most recent update scale was implemented.
Also, fuck this update scale. The old one has always been better.
I don't think it was much more casual before actually but even if it was it wasn't nearly as casual as some other leagues like the aforementioned GOMHL or SCOR are nowadays, where you basically don't have to write anything at all and still gain close to max TPE. And that's fine because these leagues were created with the mission statement to be good side leagues, to be casual and don't require much, if any, work at all. But that's not what the SHL is or has ever been in the past.
Just like Schultzy, this doesn't mean that I'm against change. I just want better change .
Sorry if my response implied you were against change. Not at all what I was trying to say.
My opinion is that I think other than providing an incentive for people to "do work" on this site, PTs provide nothing to the health of this site. Nobody reads them, they are incredibly boring to actually complete, and in the end it can contribute to people feeling "burnt out" and giving up prematurely. If by reducing the amount of PTs done in all leagues (this one included) means there is more potential traffic and active posters driven to this site, I am all for it. I am willing to sacrifice PT contribution for the sake of more beneficial activity (media, thunderdomes, community, etc.). And I say that as someone who is really only active on this site.
Oh I would absolutely be fine with replacing the PTs with something that is more fun and more engaging. Although I think some people are forgetting or simply don't know that we already made them much less painful and work-intensive than they used to be in the past, when PTs could require 300 or even 500 words and their were no freebies like Sunday Funday etc. Replacing PTs or mixing it up with something fresher and more fun is something that I'd be all for if there are good suggestions. But giving handouts to people who don't want to do the tedious work as you describe it, while the SHL-only members still have to do that work, is not the change we are looking for. It certainly doesn't create new interesting sorts of activity.
While we don't want things to become tedious, it should be an important determining factor if someone wants to put time and work into this site or not. That work doesn't have to be PTs, it can be something completely different, but if you want not just a depth player, but one of the consistent superstars of the league, then you should show that you are willing to work for it. There are lots of different gradations too, don't wanna write articles to gain money for equipment and you can still be a superstar, you just won't be able to fight off regression for as long. Don't wanna do PTs? You might not max out but can still be a top-guy in the league for many seasons through clever build management. And so on and so on. And if you don't want to put really any work into it than there even are other leagues who cater to that style of play. But if someone doesn't want to show his dedication and we just give him 250 TPE that others had to work for quite hard? Not cool.
But yeah I gotta go to bed, thanks for the good discussion everyone!
I understand the concerns of @RomanesEuntDomus and others have made - but I have to say I think your concerns are over stated. You are not getting guys who are semi-active. A guy like me is a good example. I think I have been pretty fricken active since I've come here, I'm a top 5 TPE guy in my class, but being active in other sim leagues have certainly led to a situation where I could see myself burning out. PTs are not really enjoyable. They don't add much to the league. I like reading media on here, PBE and NSFL. I don't particularly enjoy reading point tasks. With this you are more likely to have guys active and more likely to create media and other things that are beneficial to the site.
I really do understand the desire to be a standalone league - we've thought through the same things as the SHL HO has as well, but with increased recruitment opportunity in addition to an increase in league retention I think this is nothing but a benefit to all the sites.
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. And just to adress Eggy's post very quickly, the thing is that we won't be able to evaluate it's effects after just a season, it will take much longer than that. After a season we might have barely any new sign-ups, then the argument could be that there just wasn't enough time to see the benefits, or we could have a bunch of new members, but we'd have no idea if they stay active long-term and/or become actual contributing members of the community. It will probably take a good 3-4 seasons at least to be able to properly evaluate this and by then we'll already be knee-deep into this and it will be much harder to cancel or fix if it doesn't work.
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