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JumpierPegasus · 11-18-2018, 08:18 PM

I've seen a few HO members today make comments such as "why don't you tun for HO" or "maybe if you guys would put forward some ideas we could implement them". The first one isn't feasible for some people, but the last one definitely is! Maybe instead of fighting with HO on these fundamental problems that plague them (and this is not indicative of this particular HO, who seem like a bunch of great guys. I mean fuck Dangies and Adam are two of my favourite people around. These have been issues since the dawn of HO), we should have an open discussion on the forums that is constructive and might spark a good rapport between the members of the forum who feel like the HO is overstepping its bounds, those who believe the HO is acting within its rights, and those that are in HO.

Please keep all discussion civil

1) Transparency - This has been an issue that goes all the way back to even when I was in HO. We don't know what HO is thinking, we don't understand why they make certain decisions. Without a communication to the higher ups about what we are facing as issues in our league today, there is no way to react but with shock or backlash when something happens that a majority don't agree with.

2) Discussion - The HO could get good feedback if they held a town hall every season, or maybe every month, into what they are discussing and if we can help at all. They attempted this for a little after my suspension in HO caused an uproar but stopped because there wasn't a ton of discussion. Maybe offer 1 uncapped TPE for a response in that thread. It would at least get people to come to it, and if they want to add more they can, because once people make that first post they are invested.

3) Concrete Rules - No retroactive bullshit, it makes everyone walk on eggshells. Rules are put in place for a reason. If you don't like something, consult the league, work it into the rulebook, and then punish. You shouldn't be punishing someone for a prior offense. I find this mostly happens to unpopular members like Samee or c, which really pushes the cliquey-ness that the league has in its higher ups (I was part of that for a long time)

4) Strong, Defined Roles - Who does what in HO? is it still chaos like it was when I was involved? There should be more structure, more rules, and those roles should be plainly laid out on the forums. I don't know the chain of command anymore, and people I talk to don't seem to know either. It would be nice to have a public thread, maybe stickied in announcements or somewhere else that can tell us who is currently making decisions for the good for the league

5) Representing the League, not GM's - Talking to a few HO members, and seeing posts on the forums, I have heard quotes such as "we represent the GM's best interests". And to put it bluntly I don't think this is correct. The role of HO is to make sure the entire league is catered too and everyone, from the owners/HO/GM's to the PT guy, are having fun and feel like they can enjoy themselves. I don't think you represent GM's as much as you represent the good for the forum and helping everyone grow and prosper. And what that means to you is subjective, but I think that encapsulates lots of what I said, from transparency, to involving everyone, to being considerate and professional when it comes to suspension threads. I love HO and I love its members, and I think it functions best when it tries to look at the needs of society and the forums, and making SHL into the #1 hockey forum on the internet.

6) Cliquey Attitude - Going back to that point 3, it's an interesting one, and a controversial one. I think there is definitely an elite cliquey-ness to the SHL, and there always has been. From crew, to the voted HO, to now, we have had the liked people bullying, and keeping down the disliked. It's hard to break out of that disliked mould. I do wonder if it was a popular member (like a gooney, or a bojo. But you can make the argument they wouldn't, but lets instead say someone like me who totally would be this kind of ass) that was doing the rumour mill, if we would have seen such a harsh reaction and very little support. I think this because I myself think I benefited from being liked. When I leaked HO information I faced a severe punishment, but the league was completely on my side, and I had riled people up to a point where they were all against the HO for their decision. Was this because it was a bad decision, or because I am a popular member on the forums with a lot of friends in important places? I also got my expansion team in S25, and again I think about whether this is because I had a lot of friends in HO. I have said some on the line shit on these forums that are suspension worthy, but again my friends in HO kept me from seeing punishment. What I'm saying is, are we unfair to those who aren't popular, because it is easy to make an example out of them because we will see less anger? This could be a point that is completely off base, and something that should be ignored if I'm being honest, but just something I've been thinking about because I feel like I have unfairly benefited while a c or Samee has not had the same benefit of the doubt. Again, not saying current HO are like that, it just feels like we can get a mob mentality and cliquey here, and it's something that we should maybe keep in check? Maybe I should never have written this...

Anyway, feel free to put in your 2 cents, this is just my opinion and something I've pined on today. I could probably add more, and I might, but this is just what I'm able to think of while raking leaves. Please keep it civil, I love you guys and just want to see SHL be its very best, because I've put a lot of time in here

Dangles13 · 11-18-2018, 08:21 PM

Banned for good ideas

Kind of funny, I was just pulling up your account to go back to a post you made about how we handled the Samee incident so I could put in HO.

JumpierPegasus · 11-18-2018, 08:24 PM

11-18-2018, 08:21 PMDangles13 Wrote: Banned for good ideas

You are my love Heart

I want to start an open and honest dialogue here. I think the current members in HO are very talented and very good. I have a lot of people I would consider friends in there, and the others I have talked to and had good conversations and honest conversations. I want to make sure that the league can get along with them, because I know how tough it is to be in that position. And I know how tough it is to take shit. And I've talked to no less than 3 people today who said it stresses them the fuck out. I want a role in HO to be something that people want to do, and no one is scared of. And I think the league can bring up some things they are feeling

DeletedAtUserRequest · 11-18-2018, 08:36 PM

if you are serious about this being a civil discussion with its intensions to 'help' then before everyone jumps in... how about we start with this..

A portion of the problem we see with HO stems from them being so fucking defensive because of the abuse they take for every nickle and dime decision they make. If you havnt been in a high level job here then you dont know how whip lashing it can be when 100 dudes jump down your throat all at once. I witnessed it first hand last month as PT director... i was there no longer then 3 weeks, made a mistake on the CW and instead of a couple of PMs asking me to make some changes to it i had to enjoy the izzy shitshow for about 10 days. you may come in to the job with good intensions but it becomes apparent quickly that the 90 things you do right dont get noticed but the 1-2 things you do wrong gets you ganged up on for sport.

This pressure is probably 10 times worse if you are part of HO these past few seasons and if you are sticking around through that bullshit you may in fact always walk around feeling defensive or forced to adapt to the anger and become angry yourself. and that makes it harder to listen to others and compramise.

If we want to help HO.. and yes they do make mistakes and can definitley take some advice.. then it has to start with treating them with some more respect when we dont agree with them.

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sash · 11-18-2018, 08:45 PM

With everything thats happened today, I'd like to suggest an SHLPA (much like the NHLPA). The HO seems to be represting how GMs feel with these kinds of desicions. I feel theres no one representing the players point of view.

Hallsy · 11-18-2018, 08:46 PM

11-18-2018, 08:45 PMSamee Wrote: With everything thats happened today, I'd like to suggest an SHLPA (much like the NHLPA). The HO seems to be represting how GMs feel with these kinds of desicions. I feel theres no one representing the players point of view.

That won't work it will just create a bigger divide and slow shit down. People will shit on the SHLPA and the HO.

JSS · 11-18-2018, 08:47 PM

11-18-2018, 08:45 PMSamee Wrote: With everything thats happened today, I'd like to suggest an SHLPA (much like the NHLPA). The HO seems to be represting how GMs feel with these kinds of desicions. I feel theres no one representing the players point of view.

HO doesn't represent one side more than the other. We do what's best for the site and the userbase.

JumpierPegasus · 11-18-2018, 08:48 PM

11-18-2018, 08:36 PMMike Izzy Wrote: if you are serious about this being a civil discussion with its intensions to 'help' then before everyone jumps in... how about we start with this..

A portion of the problem we see with HO stems from them being so fucking defensive because of the abuse they take for every nickle and dime decision they make. If you havnt been in a high level job here then you dont know how whip lashing it can be when 100 dudes jump down your throat all at once. I witnessed it first hand last month as PT director... i was there no longer then 3 weeks, made a mistake on the CW and instead of a couple of PMs asking me to make some changes to it i had to enjoy the izzy shitshow for about 10 days. you may come in to the job with good intensions but it becomes apparent quickly that the 90 things you do right dont get noticed but the 1-2 things you do wrong gets you ganged up on for sport.

This pressure is probably 10 times worse if you are part of HO these past few seasons and if you are sticking around through that bullshit you may in fact always walk around feeling defensive or forced to adapt to the anger and become angry yourself.

If we want to help HO.. and yes they do make mistakes and can definitley take some advice.. then it has to start with treating them with some more respect when we dont agree with them.

Believe me I know this first hand from quite a few years at the helm of different projects. It's not fun, and it is why I don't really do it anymore. This starts from both sides imo. The forum is a toxic place, but there is the question of whether it would be a toxic place under different circumstances, or maybe a better communication system. I don't know, but I'd like to think so

I think if we as a whole can get more community involvement in matters that effect 100-200 people, I think we might see more of a rapport between HO and the forum. I want HO to be a position that people want to take to make SHL a better place. It's become something no one wants to do... Because of this stupid fucking forum that I love so much lmao

I think there just needs to be better communication. But I agree, people are way to hard on HO

Hallsy · 11-18-2018, 08:48 PM

tbh HO should not be handling punishment and there should be a discipline committee of some sorts. HO should stop wasting their time on handling out discipline and maybe try to make rules and make the site a better place awhile the discipline committee should just enforce the rules. If a retroactive rule situation opens up, the committee should look at the severity of the punishment and see if hey hurt anyone in doing this or negatively affected ones enjoyment on the site. And if they didn't well they shouldn't get a punished.

JumpierPegasus · 11-18-2018, 08:51 PM

11-18-2018, 08:46 PMThatDamnMcJesus Wrote:
11-18-2018, 08:45 PMSamee Wrote: With everything thats happened today, I'd like to suggest an SHLPA (much like the NHLPA). The HO seems to be represting how GMs feel with these kinds of desicions. I feel theres no one representing the players point of view.

That won't work it will just create a bigger divide and slow shit down. People will shit on the SHLPA and the HO.

This. I don't think we need to have a one org pitted against another org type of thing

The forum as a whole should just be involved. Not on all matters of course, suspensions, or issues arising in HO that do not need to be public domain are fine. Not 100% transparency necessarily. But what changes is HO discussing? What problems does HO think is facing the SHL at this time? What do they need help on? What jobs might be open? How does the forum feel about restructuring this portion?

It is all about people feeling involved. I think vitrol goes down when that happens. Whether it be talks in discord, or the forums, or polls. Who knows how to handle it, but I think it is a step to community involvement and the SHL feeling like the HO is there for them

No SHLPA, just creates more people in positions that can do things behind closed doors. I want less barriers, more open office concepts

White Cornerback · 11-18-2018, 08:53 PM

all I want is the there to be hyperlink to the indexes instead of having to click to page 1 every time :(

***WannabeFinn*** · 11-18-2018, 08:57 PM

11-18-2018, 08:45 PMSamee Wrote: With everything thats happened today, I'd like to suggest an SHLPA (much like the NHLPA). The HO seems to be represting how GMs feel with these kinds of desicions. I feel theres no one representing the players point of view.

So the GM's get to be in the SHLPA too since we are also players, right?

karey · 11-18-2018, 09:04 PM

11-18-2018, 08:53 PMWhite Cornerback Wrote: all I want is the there to be hyperlink to the indexes instead of having to click to page 1 every time :(

Look on the top of the page you fuck.

JumpierPegasus · 11-18-2018, 09:05 PM

11-18-2018, 09:04 PMkarey Wrote:
11-18-2018, 08:53 PMWhite Cornerback Wrote: all I want is the there to be hyperlink to the indexes instead of having to click to page 1 every time :(

Look on the top of the page you fuck.

TURMOIL IN BUFFALO?!

FIND OUT NEXT TIME ON INSIDER TRADING

ml002 · 11-18-2018, 09:08 PM

Why not introduce a role like SHL HO Secretary? Someone who does a weekly minutes for the non-HO members

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