yeah, something that would be cool is someone to post weekly updates about what HO is doing, what their plan is moving forward. I know HO discuss a lot of stuff we shouldnt know, but some of the stuff that would be good to know should be public.
11-18-2018, 09:14 PM(This post was last modified: 11-18-2018, 09:19 PM by Sleepy.)
I kinda want to follow up with what Izzy said and remind everyone that HO are people too. I'm on the SHL for fun. I do it as a hobby because I am interested in hockey and I feel like that is 99% of the reason why people are here. What really makes this hard to swallow for me is the absolute disregard for the people in HO sometimes. They are in that position because they love the SHL, probably more so than the average user. I'll admit, I've had my issues with HO decisions in the past and I've laid a fair amount of criticism at their feet so I am sure I am guilty of the added stress they get on the day to day. But going into a thread and calling them tyrannical, calling them a dictatorship, or calling what they do fascism is absurd and absolutely dilutes the importance and weight of those words. At the end of the day HO are a bunch of dudes trying to look after, essentially, an entire hockey community and make it a fun and inclusive place for everyone to be.
While I agree, there should be more transparency on their part, people need to take a step back and understand that what they are doing is in attempt to make the SHL a better place for everyone. Of course they are going to make decision that will be unpopular. Of course they are going to make mistakes. But does every single decision HO make need to be met with such vitriol from the community at large? I don't think so! Instead of seeing red and immediately jumping to personally attacking them, open a dialogue such as the one JP is opening here. There is no reason to hurl insults around just because you don't agree with a decision someone else makes. There is absolutely no reason to call someone a tyrant over what is essentially a hobbyist's website. Don't approach these decisions like a 3 year old who hasn't had their juice box and afternoon nap yet. You look like a tool and it leaves a stain on the SHL, and yourself, that I'm sure plenty of people don't want to see.
At the end of the day we're just a bunch of folks trying to have fun. I just wish that everyone would take a step back and realize that and not get so up in arms over shit sometimes.
These guys got it easy, I was told I needed to be exterminated like the Jews lol. We probably should just put Leafs back in charge and everyone does whatever the fuck he says like the old days.
11-18-2018, 08:45 PMSamee Wrote: With everything thats happened today, I'd like to suggest an SHLPA (much like the NHLPA). The HO seems to be represting how GMs feel with these kinds of desicions. I feel theres no one representing the players point of view.
HO doesn't represent one side more than the other. We do what's best for the site and the userbase.
It was interesting to see your post in one of these threads that was along the lines of "Keep in mind that we have to keep GMs interests in mind as well, not just the regular members" as if non-GM members have too much perceived power. Because at least in my opinion the opposite is the case and JP touched a bit on it in the OP: I actually think GMs have too much power at times.
I know that this is probably a very unpopular opinion. GMs usually are amongst the most engaged and mature members and as such they should be heard, but in my experience we cater to them a bit too much at times which is short-sighted and sometimes not good for the league at all. It's rare that the dividing lines are so clear as they are in this case, where GMs seem to be livid whereas regular members mostly don't seem to have an issue with what samee did, and even if they disagree with samee they don't think a harsh punishment is needed.
It's not easy for a HO to balance these two sides against each other and I acknowledge that you've tried to do that by going for a lighter punishment than originally intended after hearing the public's feedback. Still, I would urge every HO to listen to the GMs opinions, but don't let them be the driving force behind your decisisons. Because just like everyone else, they have their own selfish intentions and motivations, some of which them might not even be conciously aware of, things that they think they need to do to protect their team, but that aren't good for the league as a whole.
There are a few examples from the past that come to mind where I think GMs exercised to much power or did very effective lobbying towards the HO/Owners that ultimately weren't good for the league. One is the most recent expansion, were the league had worked out a plan for the expansion draft which would've given the two expansion teams a decent starting position, but the existing teams' GMs who didn't want to lose anything in the expansion draft, lobbied so long and hard until the proposal was completely watered down and bent in their favor. The result is well-known, the expansion teams only got to draft scraps and it took them an incredibly long time to get off the ground, hell they haven't even really been competitive for more than a handful of seasons until today, almost twenty seasons after their inception. Sure, plenty of things had gone wrong for both expansions teams in the years following their entry into the league, which contributed massively to their poor record. But the impact of these mistakes wouldn't have been so catastrophic if the teams hadn't been forced to start with so little.
There are other situations where I also think that GM influence isn't always entirely helpful. Stuff like the salary cap, update scale changes or the regression system. You should absolutely get feedback from the GMs when you are planning to implement changes to these systems, but the GMs shouldn't be the driving force behind the eventual decision. They have short-term interests and those interests might not always align with the leagues interests, such as parity and competition. The majority of GMs might not like a lower salary cap because it would lead to them losing a player or two, when that lowered cap is exactly what would be needed to promote parity (just as an example, not saying that is the case). They might push against minimum contracts so they could keep ridiculously stacking their teams, or vote on regression changes based on where in its life-cycle their team is in. None of that is with malicious intent, but what a GMs thinks is good might not be what is actually good for everyone.
I think this imbalance between GMs and regular members is part of the reason why some people feel so disenfranchised. They see that GMs seem to have a very effective backchannel through which they can influence decisions or gain information, while they as ordinary members don't have that. GMs get to communicate their concerns to the HO and HO listens, whereas the members only have the usual shitstorm threads which are a mess and where you have to be lucky to even get an answer from an HO member (because they, understandably, don't want to throw themselves to the wolves like that).
11-19-2018, 09:56 AM(This post was last modified: 11-19-2018, 10:03 AM by Slappydoodle.)
11-18-2018, 09:14 PMSleepy Wrote: I kinda want to follow up with what Izzy said and remind everyone that HO are people too. I'm on the SHL for fun. I do it as a hobby because I am interested in hockey and I feel like that is 99% of the reason why people are here. What really makes this hard to swallow for me is the absolute disregard for the people in HO sometimes. They are in that position because they love the SHL, probably more so than the average user. I'll admit, I've had my issues with HO decisions in the past and I've laid a fair amount of criticism at their feet so I am sure I am guilty of the added stress they get on the day to day. But going into a thread and calling them tyrannical, calling them a dictatorship, or calling what they do fascism is absurd and absolutely dilutes the importance and weight of those words. At the end of the day HO are a bunch of dudes trying to look after, essentially, an entire hockey community and make it a fun and inclusive place for everyone to be.
While I agree, there should be more transparency on their part, people need to take a step back and understand that what they are doing is in attempt to make the SHL a better place for everyone. Of course they are going to make decision that will be unpopular. Of course they are going to make mistakes. But does every single decision HO make need to be met with such vitriol from the community at large? I don't think so! Instead of seeing red and immediately jumping to personally attacking them, open a dialogue such as the one JP is opening here. There is no reason to hurl insults around just because you don't agree with a decision someone else makes. There is absolutely no reason to call someone a tyrant over what is essentially a hobbyist's website. Don't approach these decisions like a 3 year old who hasn't had their juice box and afternoon nap yet. You look like a tool and it leaves a stain on the SHL, and yourself, that I'm sure plenty of people don't want to see.
At the end of the day we're just a bunch of folks trying to have fun. I just wish that everyone would take a step back and realize that and not get so up in arms over shit sometimes.
Idk. Just my two cents.
Hope ya'll have a great evening.
I stick by every word I wrote. None of it was a personal attack. I targeted no one for their character. I judged them on their actions. They are good people. They just have a tendency to react to situations by punishing people first then making up a rule to cover the situation after. This must stop. Just because they volunteered their time I will not give them a pass for arbitrary rules and standards. They are choosing to take these actions. It is not a passive error. They are actively deciding to do these things. Also, they literally are telling Samee, ” you didn’t do anything wrong, but because you possess information we want we are going to threaten and eventually punish you.” It is hard to see this as moral or really as anything other than strong arm bullying tactics.
I agree with the OP. I have called over and over again for transparency in the HO. Not for every decision. For the most part I don’t even want to know what they are discussing. When it comes to punishments and bans and rule changes though, some transparency would go a long way. Let’s get proactive community involvement before a ruling is made as opposed to the current model of fait accompli and accompanying shitshow.
11-19-2018, 10:16 AM(This post was last modified: 11-19-2018, 10:17 AM by luke.)
Also a follow up on 2) about the town hall. I’m not sure giving out tpe would be a good idea to have, but a town hall is definitely a good Idea. To your point that there wouldn’t be people talking in it, I think with how passionate some people are about the shl they would voice their opinion whether they got tpe or not.
A town hall will allow shl and smjhl members voice their opinions and get a good feel of where the SHL is heading towards and where people stand in it. Of course there can always been people talking on discord about it but a town hall would make it more offfical and you can look back and see where the HO members want to get the shl to in the future.
Also there are so many good ideas that a lot of members called it a good idea that we haven’t really heard anything from so it would be nice to know if the idea would not be viable or something rather than not knowing at all
HO as a whole will be addressing some of these points in various ways as we try to move towards more transparency. Speaking from a personal standpoint I will be continuing the Head Office Roundups that Crutch and Eggy had started but have long since died. Every couple weeks I’ll be talking about what we are discussing (without giving too much away) and allowing y’all to ask questions. As long as I’m not being attacked I’ll answer and keep it happening, as long as I remember to do it lol.
Dangles also had an idea that we are on board for but I’ll let him announce it when he has the time to. We will begin to try and be more open to y’all though.
i think one of those things were you submit a request, and then people add their signature to it, or upvote it. That could help clearly showcase what's most important to shl members.
11-18-2018, 08:18 PMJumpierPancakes Wrote: I do wonder if it was a popular member (like a gooney, or a bojo).
FWIW, I haven't had any special access to anything since I stepped down as GM.
no i saying what if you were in samee's shoes. Yanoe, posting some rumours and livin ya life. Would they have also banned you from holding management positions, or would there have been a less harsh punishment because you're freakin bojo and barring you from holding management positions would be met with a lot of backlash
Again, it's a point that is probably silly, but being separated from that top of the food chain clique for one of the first times in my career I'm kind of seeing the class system and the wage gap
11-19-2018, 10:52 AM.bojo Wrote: FWIW, I haven't had any special access to anything since I stepped down as GM.
no i saying what if you were in samee's shoes. Yanoe, posting some rumours and livin ya life. Would they have also banned you from holding management positions, or would there have been a less harsh punishment because you're freakin bojo and barring you from holding management positions would be met with a lot of backlash
Again, it's a point that is probably silly, but being separated from that top of the food chain clique for one of the first times in my career I'm kind of seeing the class system and the wage gap
I'm probably crazy though
I hope that wouldn't be the case. Reputation should rarely ever matter on this site. I need people to call me out on being an asshole when it happens. Because it does.
If you guys have been holding back, let it all out man.
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