A lot of interesting, unique ideas here. I actually wrote an article earlier about the least-played archetype, the enforcer, and gave some suggestions on what a fix could look like: http://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=90982
The problem I saw with the enforcer is that items too restrictive, and forced you into one build that was incredibly boring to progress with.
It appears a larger problem is the one you bring up, that the other archetypes have too many choices, and therefore, due to the nature of the Simulator we use, only few good choices. Looking at the archetype templates, perhaps we need to add a couple more restrictions to some of them, like the suggestion you made about having defense or puck handling as a weakness if you pick a sniper, etc.
What really intrigued me was the idea of changing the starting values of your attributes depending on what archetype you chose. That would be the easiest change (with some auditing/editing to existing builds) that would have the most significant impact.
All in all, this is a great conversation to have, and I'm glad we can all have it!
I know this problem has been talked about for the two plus years I have been on the site but it doesn't seem like HO ever makes any actual changes to make the league/sims better. Mostly they seem to just be there to police bad boy words and rule breakers.
First SHL goal on first SHL shot in first SHL game.
The solution I feel is what I did on my spread sheet. Dump the idea of the enforcer and work it in with the 'grinder'
Grinder should be a viable build on it's own as an effective 3rd liner with high skating but has uncapped fighting and checking. So if someone wanted to be an enforcer type the avenue is there to do so. But offers some better overall utility and usefulness.
12-12-2018, 07:49 PM(This post was last modified: 12-12-2018, 07:51 PM by ArGarBarGar.)
Too bad you did this after I recorded my podcast, because there are a lot of comments I have just on the changes you want to make alone.
As I have said numerous times the bottleneck will always be in STHS, and attempts to make "diverse" builds will be hampered by the fact people will be striving for the meta of "goals-assists-hits" constantly. Not to mention STHS isn't even reliable enough to rely on archetypes actually doing anything.
Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)* *All-Time Leader Among All Skaters Player Profile | Update Thread
12-12-2018, 07:47 PMMack Wrote: I know this problem has been talked about for the two plus years I have been on the site but it doesn't seem like HO ever makes any actual changes to make the league/sims better. Mostly they seem to just be there to police bad boy words and rule breakers.
Instead of pointing fingers at this monolithic HO you have in mind, why not contribute to the conversation in a constructive way?
12-12-2018, 07:49 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Too bad you did this after I recorded my podcast, because there are a lot of comments I have just on the changes you want to make alone.
As I have said numerous times the bottleneck will always be in STHS, and attempts to make "diverse" builds will be hampered by the fact people will be striving for the meta of "goals-assists-hits" constantly. Not to mention STHS isn't even reliable enough to rely on archetypes actually doing anything.
Of course there will always be cookie cutter builds. And with a change like this it would only be a matter of time before it's figured out. But at least it would change it up a bit.
12-12-2018, 07:49 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Too bad you did this after I recorded my podcast, because there are a lot of comments I have just on the changes you want to make alone.
As I have said numerous times the bottleneck will always be in STHS, and attempts to make "diverse" builds will be hampered by the fact people will be striving for the meta of "goals-assists-hits" constantly. Not to mention STHS isn't even reliable enough to rely on archetypes actually doing anything.
There has to be SOME flexibility though than the current, everyone is the same except those who choose poorly at the start?
12-12-2018, 07:49 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Too bad you did this after I recorded my podcast, because there are a lot of comments I have just on the changes you want to make alone.
As I have said numerous times the bottleneck will always be in STHS, and attempts to make "diverse" builds will be hampered by the fact people will be striving for the meta of "goals-assists-hits" constantly. Not to mention STHS isn't even reliable enough to rely on archetypes actually doing anything.
Of course there will always be cookie cutter builds. And with a change like this it would only be a matter of time before it's figured out. But at least it would change it up a bit.
Exactly!
I figure optimal builds will be sorted out eventually. But Id just like to see archetypes fill a role the best they can.
Snipers SHOULD at least shoot more on a minimum, may not always score more, but the build should afford the base opportunity to do so.
Grinder should hit the most, or be afforded the opportunity to do so.
12-12-2018, 07:49 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Too bad you did this after I recorded my podcast, because there are a lot of comments I have just on the changes you want to make alone.
As I have said numerous times the bottleneck will always be in STHS, and attempts to make "diverse" builds will be hampered by the fact people will be striving for the meta of "goals-assists-hits" constantly. Not to mention STHS isn't even reliable enough to rely on archetypes actually doing anything.
Of course there will always be cookie cutter builds. And with a change like this it would only be a matter of time before it's figured out. But at least it would change it up a bit.
Okay, great, you prolonged the inevitable. Now everyone is working the meta.
Now what?
If your concept isn't sustainable then why implement it in the first place?
Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)* *All-Time Leader Among All Skaters Player Profile | Update Thread
12-12-2018, 07:55 PMMayuu Wrote: Of course there will always be cookie cutter builds. And with a change like this it would only be a matter of time before it's figured out. But at least it would change it up a bit.
Okay, great, you prolonged the inevitable. Now everyone is working the meta.
Now what?
If your concept isn't sustainable then why implement it in the first place?
The current issue though is you have what seems like multiple starting points. But they all end at the same point. Why have choice when it ultimately means nothing?
Harder locked in archetypes would hopefully direct builds to certain stats more than others rather than having the same end point.
12-12-2018, 08:06 PM(This post was last modified: 12-12-2018, 08:07 PM by Mayuu.)
12-12-2018, 07:59 PMArGarBarGar Wrote:
12-12-2018, 07:55 PMMayuu Wrote: Of course there will always be cookie cutter builds. And with a change like this it would only be a matter of time before it's figured out. But at least it would change it up a bit.
Okay, great, you prolonged the inevitable. Now everyone is working the meta.
Now what?
If your concept isn't sustainable then why implement it in the first place?
Is the current concept sustainable?
I can see reasons other then sim results that would benefit from this. Like not crating a ass player just cause your new and don't know the cookie cutter builds.
I spent my player change and redistributed 90 points my first two seasons cause I didn't know how boring a player I would have.
I think having solid archetypes would help with player retention.
12-12-2018, 07:59 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Okay, great, you prolonged the inevitable. Now everyone is working the meta.
Now what?
If your concept isn't sustainable then why implement it in the first place?
The current issue though is you have what seems like multiple starting points. But they all end at the same point. Why have choice when it ultimately means nothing?
Harder locked in archetypes would hopefully direct builds to certain stats more than others rather than having the same end point.
Then remove the choice and get rid of the current builds as they are.
These archetypes will just lock people into only a couple of archetypes or give people diverse builds that don't translate to STHS because there aren't enough stats to demonstrate diversity in any meaningful way.
If you want to show me something where diverse builds can actually result in some kind of diversity in the sim, then go ahead. Changing the attribute numbers around doesn't address the issues inherent to STHS.
Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)* *All-Time Leader Among All Skaters Player Profile | Update Thread
12-12-2018, 07:59 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Okay, great, you prolonged the inevitable. Now everyone is working the meta.
Now what?
If your concept isn't sustainable then why implement it in the first place?
Is the current concept sustainable?
I can see reasons other then sim results that would benefit from this. Like not crating a ass player just cause your new and don't know the cookie cutter builds.
I spent my player change and redistributed 90 points my first two seasons cause I didn't know how boring a player I would have.
I think having solid archetypes would help with player retention.
The current concept is what it is. Nobody is trying to assert it solved diversity issues.
When you make a change and devote time and effort (which will require the entire site to make changes to just like the update scale changes) you have to demonstrate its sustainability, because if not then you made changes for the same thing to happen anyway.
How does having "solid" archetypes help with player retention if the results don't follow the builds?
Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)* *All-Time Leader Among All Skaters Player Profile | Update Thread
12-12-2018, 08:12 PM(This post was last modified: 12-12-2018, 08:13 PM by Rabidsponge21.)
12-12-2018, 08:07 PMArGarBarGar Wrote:
12-12-2018, 08:05 PMRabidsponge21 Wrote: The current issue though is you have what seems like multiple starting points. But they all end at the same point. Why have choice when it ultimately means nothing?
Harder locked in archetypes would hopefully direct builds to certain stats more than others rather than having the same end point.
Then remove the choice and get rid of the current builds as they are.
These archetypes will just lock people into only a couple of archetypes or give people diverse builds that don't translate to STHS because there aren't enough stats to demonstrate diversity in any meaningful way.
If you want to show me something where diverse builds can actually result in some kind of diversity in the sim, then go ahead. Changing the attribute numbers around doesn't address the issues inherent to STHS.
Okay, if thats the potential solution why not work with that to start? Thats what I want to get to here.
Fix how the current archetypes are laid out. Maybe remove some restrictions and place others to create some sense of diversity at least with what we have (forcing a power forward to pick strength is one) Or just get rid of the idea of a weakness and adjust the TPE being handed out (which I also think could work to help see checking more widely used). Or my other idea, if you pick center, get a free bonus to starting face offs so your not forced to pump extra into it when no one else has too?
There are tweaks and answers here as well instead of a wide sweeping re work at least to start right?
Or atleast maybe put some better explanations for new players about how passing - scoring - skating balance works?
Also I said too about testing! I was looking for some input/ help to maybe work towards getting the idea of locked in archetypes to function like we picture if its possible with STHS, I don't know! I want to find out what that solution is.
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