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ArGarBarGar · 12-27-2018, 04:32 PM

12-27-2018, 04:28 PMBoomcheck Wrote: Retire his number, he deserves that much. HOF has players inducted in the past 10 seasons that I find iffy, but Pedersen will make it in.

I'd be curious what players you think are iffy. Could use some things to discuss on my podcast.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
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Boomcheck · 12-27-2018, 04:40 PM

12-27-2018, 04:32 PMArGarBarGar Wrote:
12-27-2018, 04:28 PMBoomcheck Wrote: Retire his number, he deserves that much. HOF has players inducted in the past 10 seasons that I find iffy, but Pedersen will make it in.

I'd be curious what players you think are iffy. Could use some things to discuss on my podcast.

I'll drop it in your questions area, could use some enlightenment so I get an idea of how the thought process was in voting.

Bonk · 12-27-2018, 06:15 PM

12-27-2018, 09:04 AMArGarBarGar Wrote: Also, like I have said numerous times, getting more ice time doesn't mean you add the same P/20 average to the extra time. It isn't a linear deal.

Guys with fewer minutes would assuredly have more points, but there is no guarantee they would score at the same pace (or higher or lower), which makes it incredibly hard to really compare.

Coming from the guy who how many minutes?

ArGarBarGar · 12-27-2018, 06:17 PM

12-27-2018, 06:15 PMBonk Wrote:
12-27-2018, 09:04 AMArGarBarGar Wrote: Also, like I have said numerous times, getting more ice time doesn't mean you add the same P/20 average to the extra time. It isn't a linear deal.

Guys with fewer minutes would assuredly have more points, but there is no guarantee they would score at the same pace (or higher or lower), which makes it incredibly hard to really compare.

Coming from the guy who how many minutes?

I guess we are fighting, now?

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
Player Profile | Update Thread
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Bonk · 12-27-2018, 06:19 PM

12-27-2018, 06:17 PMArGarBarGar Wrote:
12-27-2018, 06:15 PMBonk Wrote: Coming from the guy who how many minutes?

I guess we are fighting, now?

not trying to fight but I don't think that's a good argument from the league leader in minutes.

ArGarBarGar · 12-27-2018, 06:29 PM

12-27-2018, 06:19 PMBonk Wrote:
12-27-2018, 06:17 PMArGarBarGar Wrote:

I guess we are fighting, now?

not trying to fight but I don't think that's a good argument from the league leader in minutes.

Then counter the argument instead of just labeling my entire argument invalid because I personally played a ton of minutes?

This is such an odd route for you to take considering we had a pretty healthy (at least in my opinion) back and forth about ice time between our podcasts.

No, I do not think that you can rely on the P/20 average to continue at the same rate if you play more minutes. Yes I believe that playing more minutes per game can be a factor in top-tier players earning more points than others. Yes I believe it should be taken into account more closely. Do you object to any of those statements?

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
Player Profile | Update Thread
[Image: IeEV7Iv.png]

Bonk · 12-27-2018, 08:27 PM

Again, I was not trying to fight, but was merely point out that this might not be your best argument. I was really trying to stay out of it considering I am on the ballot.
Although if you are going to pull me in fine, I’ll bite.

12-27-2018, 06:29 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Then counter the argument instead of just labeling my entire argument invalid because I personally played a ton of minutes?

I never said that you titled to use that argument I was saying was I do not think this is your best argument. Although you certainly seems sensitive to the topic.

12-27-2018, 06:29 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: This is such an odd route for you to take considering we had a pretty healthy (at least in my opinion) back and forth about ice time between our podcasts.

I am not sure what “route” you are referring too. I am puzzled by the first part of this statement.
Although I agree with you, it was a good back and forth.

12-27-2018, 06:29 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: No, I do not think that you can rely on the P/20 average to continue at the same rate if you play more minutes.

I never said relied on it but it should be looked at. Just like Pederson becoming eighth all time in scoring while the helping the Dragon won five cups should be looked at. Pederson did not become eighth all time because he was an average player nor did the Dragon win five cups because he was an average player.

12-27-2018, 06:29 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Yes I believe that playing more minutes per game can be a factor in top-tier players earning more points than others.

That kind of, sort of, sounds like the difference between, Hall of Fame and Hall of Very Good.

12-27-2018, 06:29 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Yes I believe it should be taken into account more closely.

Okay

12-27-2018, 06:29 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Do you object to any of those statements?

No, I really don’t

ArGarBarGar · 12-27-2018, 10:04 PM

12-27-2018, 08:27 PMBonk Wrote: Again, I was not trying to fight, but was merely point out that this might not be your best argument. I was really trying to stay out of it considering I am on the ballot.
Although if you are going to pull me in fine, I’ll bite.

12-27-2018, 06:29 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Then counter the argument instead of just labeling my entire argument invalid because I personally played a ton of minutes?

I never said that you titled to use that argument I was saying was I do not think this is your best argument. Although you certainly seems sensitive to the topic.

12-27-2018, 06:29 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: This is such an odd route for you to take considering we had a pretty healthy (at least in my opinion) back and forth about ice time between our podcasts.

I am not sure what “route” you are referring too. I am puzzled by the first part of this statement.
Although I agree with you, it was a good back and forth.

12-27-2018, 06:29 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: No, I do not think that you can rely on the P/20 average to continue at the same rate if you play more minutes.

I never said relied on it but it should be looked at. Just like Pederson becoming eighth all time in scoring while the helping the Dragon won five cups should be looked at. Pederson did not become eighth all time because he was an average player nor did the Dragon win five cups because he was an average player.

12-27-2018, 06:29 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Yes I believe that playing more minutes per game can be a factor in top-tier players earning more points than others.

That kind of, sort of, sounds like the difference between, Hall of Fame and Hall of Very Good.

12-27-2018, 06:29 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Yes I believe it should be taken into account more closely.

Okay

12-27-2018, 06:29 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Do you object to any of those statements?

No, I really don’t

I am somewhat sensitive to this topic because this thread was started with an incredulous poster getting upset because Pedersen wasn't a first ballot hall of famer and that this is somehow a "spit in the face of the SHL. That coupled with an insinuation that there was some bias involved with leaving him out on the part of the committee is frustrating, ESPECIALLY considering this is not the first time people have gotten aggressively angry at us for certain players not being inducted in a given year (see: Kinsler).

Then what frustrated me about your initial response was I inferred it to be scoffing at my argument and rendering my opinion completely invalid due to it having something possibly to do with my player. If you were meaning something else, I apologize, but I hope you can understand why I would take your initial comment towards me in a way that came across as unnecessarily aggressive (which is what I meant by the "route" you were taking in response to me).

I think the rest we are generally in agreement about, and I look forward to more elaboration on the topic in your next podcast. For the record your podcast with Esa bringing up ice time was enlightening and I hope to take the points discussed between you three into account going forward.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
Player Profile | Update Thread
[Image: IeEV7Iv.png]

ztevans · 12-27-2018, 10:41 PM

As long as @Gooney gets inducted for being a wonderful human being, I'll be happy

tweedledunn · 12-27-2018, 11:03 PM

Maximilian Wehner > Timo Haas

White Cornerback · 12-27-2018, 11:30 PM

handbags are out

Daco · 12-27-2018, 11:43 PM

Anyone citing the case should provide examples of NHL hall of famers with high alltime totals but never being the best individual player in any season at all. I think that would win Chris over possibly. I do not know enough about NHL history

to clarify- first ballot HOF to get in off longevity not stardom. doesn't really happen

*Tomen* · 12-28-2018, 04:05 AM

12-27-2018, 11:43 PMDaco Wrote: Anyone citing the case should provide examples of NHL hall of famers with high alltime totals but never being the best individual player in any season at all. I think that would win Chris over possibly. I do not know enough about NHL history

to clarify- first ballot HOF to get in off longevity not stardom. doesn't really happen

Definitely not first ballot that usually doesn't happen but a good example for induction thanks to longevity is Dave Andreychuk I think he was like top 10 in league scoring once or twice in his career but is like the all time leader in PP goals and fairly high in the all time points list.

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3. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 5 (Maximilian Wachter, Alexis Metzler) at 16:25
5. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 6 (Steven Stamkos Jr., Brynjar Tusk) at 19:48
8. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 7 (Brynjar Tusk, Alexis Metzler) at 13:55
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Bonk · 12-28-2018, 07:23 PM

Source https://www.hockey-reference.com/awards/hhof.html

Mark Recchi
Pat Quinn
Phil Housley
Mike Modano
Willie O'Ree

Only looked at the recent inductees

They do have all-star appearance and cups but not individual awards

raymond3000 · 12-28-2018, 08:14 PM

12-28-2018, 07:23 PMBonk Wrote: Source https://www.hockey-reference.com/awards/hhof.html

Mark Recchi
Pat Quinn
Phil Housley
Mike Modano
Willie O'Ree

Only looked at the recent inductees

They do have all-star appearance and cups but not individual awards

First, Pat Quinn and Willie O'Ree got in as builders, not players. And of the players you listed, the only one who got in first ballot was Modano, and he was the face of the Stars franchise his entire career and is considered the greatest American-born player of all time. Recchi didn't get in until his 3rd ballot, and it took Housley 10 tries to get in.

I think apart from the awards, the biggest knock on Pedersen is that he was never really considered the best player on the Dragons. In the early part of his career, Esa was considered the superior player, and later on it was Randleman who became Calgary's top forward. He was just consistently the 2nd or 3rd best player on his team throughout his career, which is great, but he never proved he could carry a team by himself. You could say that is him being punished for playing on a good team, but teammates like Randleman and Nuck were able to put up monster seasons while Pedersen couldn't.

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