01-07-2020, 02:49 PMWasty Wrote: People need to stop putting so much damn faith in test sims. Test sims are great until line changes get made, updates get put in and all those test sims are garbage. But go ahead take them as gospel lol
01-07-2020, 02:32 PMTnlAstatine Wrote: the fact that i have worked on my player for a year and now hitting my prime I am actively bad because i can't do anything about my 90 pass is fucking stupid,
and i really hate the shl right now. Feels so stupid for being a whore for over a year. get fucked luffy.
Having 90 passing doesn’t hurt your player. Maybe you had a bad season. My player has 97 passing and had 51 points, who lead the league in scoring? oh yeah a pass first player. Having high passing doesn’t kill your player, whoever told you that is a damn liar.
01-07-2020, 02:49 PMWasty Wrote: People need to stop putting so much damn faith in test sims. Test sims are great until line changes get made, updates get put in and all those test sims are garbage. But go ahead take them as gospel lol
SC is better than PA overall but that doesn't mean that every SC player will dominate or that you cant have success as a pass-first player. This is not how this works at all. Plus it has been well known for years that SC is better than PA, it has basically been a staple of this league and hasn't hurt us too bad as we have still kept growing despite that problem. The only thing that has changed now is that we found out that the effect is a bit bigger than we thought, and that people completely overreacted to a select few test sims while ignoring all others that showed much more modest results. Apparently people love misery, it's just so weird to see all that masochistic doom and gloom talk here recently when it would be so easy to take a much more tempered and optimistic approach.
And yeah I don't get why the league doesn't implement some quick stopgap solution to curb the worst possible affects and to take away the asterisk that everyone will attribute to this season if HAM wins. Just say that Scoring can't be more than 15 or 20 points higher than Passing and be done with it, this will give you ample time to work on other fixes like the Forced Passer on Lines 1 & 2 thing (which I'm not really a fan of) and the eventual transition to FHM.
01-07-2020, 02:38 PMWasty Wrote: Having 90 passing doesn’t hurt your player. Maybe you had a bad season. My player has 97 passing and had 51 points, who lead the league in scoring? oh yeah a pass first player. Having high passing doesn’t kill your player, whoever told you that is a damn liar.
01-07-2020, 02:49 PMWasty Wrote: People need to stop putting so much damn faith in test sims. Test sims are great until line changes get made, updates get put in and all those test sims are garbage. But go ahead take them as gospel lol
SC is better than PA overall but that doesn't mean that every SC player will dominate or that you cant have success as a pass-first player. This is not how this works at all. Plus it has been well known for years that SC is better than PA, it has basically been a staple of this league and hasn't hurt us too bad as we have still kept growing despite that problem. The only thing that has changed now is that we found out that the effect is a bit bigger than we thought, and that people completely overreacted to a select few test sims while ignoring all others that showed much more modest results. Apparently people love misery, it's just so weird to see all that masochistic doom and gloom talk here recently when it would be so easy to take a much more tempered and optimistic approach.
And yeah I don't get why the league doesn't implement some quick stopgap solution to curb the worst possible affects and to take away the asterisk that everyone will attribute to this season if HAM wins. Just say that Scoring can't be more than 15 or 20 points higher than Passing and be done with it, this will give you ample time to work on other fixes like the Forced Passer on Lines 1 & 2 thing (which I'm not really a fan of) and the eventual transition to FHM.
Whoa man get out of here with that real reasoned and thoughtful response! Haha
SC is better than PA overall but that doesn't mean that every SC player will dominate or that you cant have success as a pass-first player. This is not how this works at all. Plus it has been well known for years that SC is better than PA, it has basically been a staple of this league and hasn't hurt us too bad as we have still kept growing despite that problem. The only thing that has changed now is that we found out that the effect is a bit bigger than we thought, and that people completely overreacted to a select few test sims while ignoring all others that showed much more modest results. Apparently people love misery, it's just so weird to see all that masochistic doom and gloom talk here recently when it would be so easy to take a much more tempered and optimistic approach.
And yeah I don't get why the league doesn't implement some quick stopgap solution to curb the worst possible affects and to take away the asterisk that everyone will attribute to this season if HAM wins. Just say that Scoring can't be more than 15 or 20 points higher than Passing and be done with it, this will give you ample time to work on other fixes like the Forced Passer on Lines 1 & 2 thing (which I'm not really a fan of) and the eventual transition to FHM.
Whoa man get out of here with that real reasoned and thoughtful response! Haha
puolivalmiste Player Progression Director
Posting Freak
01-07-2020, 02:38 PMWasty Wrote: Having 90 passing doesn’t hurt your player. Maybe you had a bad season. My player has 97 passing and had 51 points, who lead the league in scoring? oh yeah a pass first player. Having high passing doesn’t kill your player, whoever told you that is a damn liar.
For sure being passer does not make you suck but to me it seems like consistency isn't strongest points of SimonT, at least what I have seen in fantasy (where there is lot of moving factors) or in my own test at SMJHL level (no changes made, points anywhere from 10 to 24 for me, 22 to 42 and 24 to 46 for two forwards during 50 game season, 20 seasons, done around season 49).
And even if you have good season now you just can always reasonably think based on tested data, forum outrage or looking at Hamilton and their shots for/goals for from this season to question if your player would be better (or more helpful to team) with high scoring and low passing, which sounds like it can be very demoralizing when you have invested lot of time to player, even if difference ins't as significant as you would think.
Difference between passing and scoring might be something that gets more noticeable when most of the team is doing it and while Hamilton were top of goals for by small margin they still were not dominating everyone and for example lost both their games versus Edmonton so season isn't over yet. Also based on quick search on S50 IIHF file, ratio of shooter to passers above 92 was around 9:5 so it is not that shoot first players were not common before this all.
01-07-2020, 03:19 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: And yeah I don't get why the league doesn't implement some quick stopgap solution to curb the worst possible affects and to take away the asterisk that everyone will attribute to this season if HAM wins. Just say that Scoring can't be more than 15 or 20 points higher than Passing and be done with it, this will give you ample time to work on other fixes like the Forced Passer on Lines 1 & 2 thing (which I'm not really a fan of) and the eventual transition to FHM.
Based on this isn't those both stuff that they might do for next season. And that maybe raises real question that I have not seen too much around, if people would think that restricting players development, maybe adding some roster limits and players being even more similar would be preferable solution to sim engine change in long run? Like setting fixed passing to 80 or 90 would make it more even playing ground and remove last real choice for good builds there was.
There will always be people who don't want to build meta player that is same as everyone else even if it makes them worse but there is also very competitive people who want to be on top and want to build best player they can which leads people just reaching what ever caps are seen as best.
All in all, very tiring topic to go on and on, so no wonder people might be leaving over it for multiple reasons.
I just want to comment on a few items as someone who has been here through a lot:
1. I don't think the sim situation did the league in as much as it is the straw that broke the camels back. Enough of a situation that I think it revived just how in the dark the SHL has been, and how much they have been floating on the status quo. I do want to note to people saying everything was for naught because they had a pass first build:
I have only had pass first builds. My hierachy in fact for my two forwards has been PA/SK/SC, so scoring has been my weakest att. I put up 70 points with my first player, and Bent was a near PPG forward for a while despite being pass first and only being 1k TPE in a time of 2k TPE first liners. Stop relying on test sims, STHS is a garbage random number generator and has always been an awful sim engine with huge flaws. It took us 50 seasons to find the biggest flaw
2. The largest issue with this site has been the leagues inability to stop the formation of cliques and fragmentation. Back when the SHL was at peak activity all discussion happened on the boards. From fights, to NHL talk, to mock drafts, etc. It was damn fun, I remember it fondly, and having such a large community all commenting in one place made for some hilarious afternoons/evenings of discussion. Everything moved almost at the pace of a Discord but with 50-60 active people viewing the thread
Chatzy came along a little bit later, but it couldn't really kill of activity. After all Chatzy was a chat room that only allowed 10 people at a time and wasn't permanent. Much discussion still revolved around the league, locker rooms still existed.
The league obviously couldn't do anything about Discord. People had tried Slack, Skype, I was even a part of some MSN messenger chats back a long time ago, but nothing really stuck like Discord. There isn't much you CAN do either as it is killing a lot of forum based places on the internet. Discord was easy, unlimited channels, members, and most of all they were permanent so they were still there when you came back. You didn't need a link, all your channels were saved. What happened was a harsh fragmentation of the member base. Despite this forum being as big as it has ever been, Discord allowed for cliques and fragments to be formed. Honestly, as I was playing as Bent and involved in management in Texas, there were times when I didn't know many users on the forums. Dan would come to me with a trade idea and I did not know who this person was. This wasn't ignorance as much as it was that I had just never shared a Discord with this person. You can fragment this league hard this way, and while the league has a discord, it just... Isn't fun... A vast majority of members don't talk in it, and everyone flocks to their own favourite discord with their own SHL friends.
And honestly this has broken up some of the fun debates and interest there was in the forum. You don't come onto the forum anymore to see an interesting thread in general discussion. You come onto to forum to do a job, or update your player, and then you leave and head back to Discord. I remember the debates and arguments, and the jokes that we had between members that I had never played on a team with. I never once played with Maxy or Dion or Merica but I knew these guys and I had fun with them on the forum. For some people, like myself, there just wasn't a need to come to the forum at all anymore... You could just go to Discord and talk to your friends and now all of a sudden you are no longer updating a player. And with the sim issues and people feeling in the dark, this is going to happen more and more. People are going to realize they don't need to come to SHL to update their player because they are disenfranchised... And really that was the only reason to come here anymore. They can just go on discord instead and hang out with the friends they met already
This is pretty stream of consciousness and rambly, but my point is basically the league fragmented into hundreds of different discord channels and the activity and comradery went with it. The forum is dead, and now there is no reason to come here unless you want to build a player. I've done a lot of that already and I'm kind of tired... And there is no activity to keep drawing me. I think that's why we see a lot of veteran members leave.
I don't know what the SHL has in store for the future, but I think the member base is big enough they will be okay. It just isn't the same, discussion just isn't there, and it feels like nothing happens. The status quo has been followed. And there is nothing wrong with that. It works. I just don't personally find it fun anymore
01-07-2020, 01:13 PMjRuutu Wrote: I still cant understand why HAM (and other teams/players) were allowed to keep those builds, when you compare the two: 1) let them keep the builds OR 2) put couple updaters to revert their builds back to what they were = the second one feels a lot better?
Sure, some regression players and their builds were reverted, but looking at Hamiltons roster right now it looks pretty bad and everybody is now doing it or going to do it. 20 between SC and PA is not enough. Weird call to let it happen. More urgency and power to fight against certain words than something that can potentially even destroy the league.
Im not sure if this is posted later, as im reading back, but the hammy builds WERE reverted, we only really have a few players with a gap and in almost every case its not that extreme of a gap. I dont know how the notion of "hammy is still using this exploit" is going around.
The new conduct rules are already damn near a year old. The number of punishments handed out under them could be counted on one hand. I don't think they're the problem.
01-07-2020, 10:32 PMAvakael Wrote: The new conduct rules are already damn near a year old. The number of punishments handed out under them could be counted on one hand. I don't think they're the problem.
It me
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01-07-2020, 01:13 PMjRuutu Wrote: I still cant understand why HAM (and other teams/players) were allowed to keep those builds, when you compare the two: 1) let them keep the builds OR 2) put couple updaters to revert their builds back to what they were = the second one feels a lot better?
Sure, some regression players and their builds were reverted, but looking at Hamiltons roster right now it looks pretty bad and everybody is now doing it or going to do it. 20 between SC and PA is not enough. Weird call to let it happen. More urgency and power to fight against certain words than something that can potentially even destroy the league.
Im not sure if this is posted later, as im reading back, but the hammy builds WERE reverted, we only really have a few players with a gap and in almost every case its not that extreme of a gap. I dont know how the notion of "hammy is still using this exploit" is going around.
Bro... you can't be serious...
Players with a gap between scoring and passing greater than 15:
Code:
Buffalo - 2
Calgary - 2
Chicago - 3 (4 if you want to count roster fillers?)
Edmonton - 2 (3 if you count roster fillers?)
Hamilton - 13
Panthers - 2
Manhattan - 1 (2 if you count roster fillers)
Minnesota - 2
New England - 0
New Orleans - 1
San Francisco - 2 (3 if you count roster fillers)
Tampa Bay - 2
Texas - 1
Toronto - 2 (3 If you count roster fillers)
West Kendall - 4
Winnipeg - 1
Code:
Entirety of the WESTERN CONFERENCE (without roster fillers): 13
Entirety of the EASTERN CONFERENCE WITHOUT HAMILTON (without roster fillers): 14
01-07-2020, 10:24 PMSecondSucks22 Wrote: Im not sure if this is posted later, as im reading back, but the hammy builds WERE reverted, we only really have a few players with a gap and in almost every case its not that extreme of a gap. I dont know how the notion of "hammy is still using this exploit" is going around.
Bro... you can't be serious...
Players with a gap between scoring and passing greater than 15:
Code:
Buffalo - 2
Calgary - 2
Chicago - 3 (4 if you want to count roster fillers?)
Edmonton - 2 (3 if you count roster fillers?)
Hamilton - 13
Panthers - 2
Manhattan - 1 (2 if you count roster fillers)
Minnesota - 2
New England - 0
New Orleans - 1
San Francisco - 2 (3 if you count roster fillers)
Tampa Bay - 2
Texas - 1
Toronto - 2 (3 If you count roster fillers)
West Kendall - 4
Winnipeg - 1
Code:
Entirety of the WESTERN CONFERENCE (without roster fillers): 13
Entirety of the EASTERN CONFERENCE WITHOUT HAMILTON (without roster fillers): 14
Hamilton Steelhawks: 13
The point of mine was to say our builds arent what they were, they had been reset, its not an extreme 30 point gap that people seem to think we are sitting at. A 15 gap is super arbitrary, over half of those players are within the 20 point gap the league is asking for, and the rest were built organically (which is to say there was not a redist to set the gap, just players who didnt put tpe into passing)
Code:
: 1) let them keep the builds OR 2) put couple updaters to revert their builds back to what they were = the second one feels a lot better?
crutch
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