As most of you are aware, the issue of delay in graded media has once again raised it's ugly head, this time in the form of the Graphics department. If you aren't aware of the issues of recent, feel free to mosey on over to the retirement thread of some guy who threw a tantrum.
I am not here to crap on the graphics graders. I want to start a discussion about how things can be improved moving forward, and open a dialogue about how people feel about the current state of the department.
The first thing I am going to say is that the graders have done a fantastic job of clearing the backlog in recent times. Despite the reluctance of some to admit it, it had become a problem. That problem is now going away due to their hard work. These are two facts and they cannot be disputed, so I think we should all stop focusing on that side of the argument.
For those out of the loop and who care, they have constructed a panel style of grading that eliminates arbitration and aims to give a fairer rating to the submissions by averaging out the scorers each panelist provides. I see this as both a positive and negative thing personally, as an averaged out score could be better or worse, and not being able to argue the case for it is disheartening. The addition of constructed critique in their discord server to balance this is nice and is helpful at improvement, but honestly is only going to be beneficial for those who want to master the art.
And that is where the main issue of the graphics department really lies. The entire point of the graders is to grade peoples art. Art is subjective, and is very difficult to grade, hence why the graphics department has had a borderline revolving door of graders as far as I can recall. Despite all of the head's efforts to make the process a worthwhile task, it just isn't for most. This is where the first fix needs to happen. The graders need to be paid more, and there has to be more of them, depending on whether or not they can be available for their panel discussions at any point in time. I propose that a alternating teams would take on the schedule, so as to eliminate peoples conflicts of in real life demands, and to ease the strain on having to be subjective and potentially hurt peoples feelings when they hand out grades. It's not easy to do. I say all this without being apart of the department myself, and from a purely constructive point of view. If Carpy and Julio believe they have enough members to satisfy the current demand for grading, then I wholeheartedly endorse their assessment of their own department. If the wheels of the wagon fall off though, the blame can only be on the department itself. I don't know what the current salary of the graders is, but it obviously isn't enough to keep the less interested around. People like money, we have a false economy, let people have money. Let more people have money. It doesn't affect anyone else but the grader. More money is a key to more interest. More jobs are a key to more interest. We should be aiming to keep our rookies and young members engaged and let them participate actively, both on the site and off of it in respective discord servers.
The talk of money brings me to my second point. Bar the talented and well experienced members of the graphics community, there is absolutely no incentive for anyone to ever make graphics and have them graded by the committee. The money is absolutely pitiful, and the rubric is an absolute gauntlet to jump through. I personally have learnt to not expect a high grade or payout and I am fine with it, I'm not a good graphic artist. I very much appreciate the feedback offered to me and took it on constructively, but from an income standpoint, I quickly learnt it's not for me. That's fine and all for me personally, but for the new people who come to the site and are interested in making money through graphics but just can't get the hang of it, it's a huge turn off of the league. They can't make decent money and are strictly judged to the point where they give up. I could name many members who will never submit graphics for grading again because the money was pitiful compared to the amount of time invested or the judgement they were given was strict to the point of extreme. This all comes back to the fact the graders inherently have to be strict to conform to some kind of standard when you have extremely talented members vs absolute newbies. It's a hard task to tackle this specific situation but I have two suggestions. The first is one that the graders themselves introduced with the most recent challenge. Have separate grading categories for users depending on their skill level, money earnings, length of time on the site, whatever works the best. I've already said that I am not a member of the team, so I'm not the best person to suggest as to what that criteria should actually be, nor the limitations on where the lines are drawn. The second suggestion I have is that all gradings are given a massive boost in earnings. You can keep the level lower for the more experienced members so as to not create super inflated bank accounts by implementing both of these suggestions. But even if only the second suggestion is implemented, it will help to convince members to stick around, keep improving at their submissions, and generally increase their own talent and professionalism.
I implore fair discussion on the topic, this is not 'us vs the graders'. I want what is best for everyone so that the community may grow, people remain interested, and we keep our site a place of positivity. If these things are already being discussed between the heads and HO, then I am happy. And if they aren't, I hope this is a start.
Not been here long enough to have an opinion on how things should be run.
More interested in following the conversation to stay informed and see where this goes.
One point, from a newer person/outsider; this is a hard hustle to break into.
As a creator looking at the grading guidelines, maybe thinking they're doing good work, it feels a little harsh.
Just my 2 cents.
I would probably be a little upset too if I didn't already have the money for all my Weekly Training. Every week that goes by ungraded for a newer guy who does graphics is a week they could have earned 5 TPE. Same goes for media, obviously. There's also a reason I never ever do graphics unless it's a double week. There's just not enough money in it, and that's a feeling I have for media as well. I don't think I'm alone in how I only ever do that kind of stuff during double media/graphics.
I don't know exactly how it is here, but in the VHL it's a lot more laid back for grading. We mostly go based off of each member and how knew they are and what their previous graphics looked like for effort. Although, I don't know exactly how you'd use that same system for SHL. I don't like comparing leagues too much either, because our TPE/$$$$ earning is completely different.
I think a main solution would just be to hire more graders, and have it so people can grade things twice. Ungraded stuff takes priority, and if graders need work to justify their job in slower weeks, then they can give something a second grade....or something of that sort.
04-27-2020, 10:16 PM(This post was last modified: 04-27-2020, 10:22 PM by Wasty.)
I'm just going to say this and this is all I'll say (except the next post to DollarAndADream);
People doing graphics for just money is doing it for the wrong reasons, and that's why they quit. The people that do graphics because it's fun and they love doing sigs for people, they continue on doing them regardless of pay or bank account.
Quote:Have separate grading categories for users depending on their skill level, money earnings, length of time on the site, whatever works the best. You can keep the level lower for the more experienced members so as to not create super inflated bank accounts by implementing both of these suggestions. But even if only the second suggestion is implemented, it will help to convince members to stick around, keep improving at their submissions, and generally increase their own talent and professionalism.
Giving more money to newer members for (possibly) lower quality graphics and less money to experienced members for making better work is not the right idea.
#40 Niclas Wastlund - W - VANCOUVER WHALERS / MINNESOTA MONARCHS
04-27-2020, 10:22 PM(This post was last modified: 04-27-2020, 10:28 PM by Wasty.)
04-27-2020, 10:06 PMDollarAndADream Wrote: I would probably be a little upset too if I didn't already have the money for all my Weekly Training. Every week that goes by ungraded for a newer guy who does graphics is a week they could have earned 5 TPE. Same goes for media, obviously. There's also a reason I never ever do graphics unless it's a double week. There's just not enough money in it, and that's a feeling I have for media as well. I don't think I'm alone in how I only ever do that kind of stuff during double media/graphics.
You definitely have the talent to do 4 sigs a week and at the lowest you'd get 3/5s. If you got 3/5 on all 4 of them you make 3M, it would make you do 3,000 words for an article to get 3M. There's money in graphics if you just continue to do them and not just wait for a one week period. Consistently you could make over 12-15M a season if you just did 3/5s for 4-5 weeks.
*Math and scenario inspired by Lime
#40 Niclas Wastlund - W - VANCOUVER WHALERS / MINNESOTA MONARCHS
04-27-2020, 10:16 PMWasty Wrote: I'm just going to say this and this is all I'll say (except the next post to DollarAndADream);
People doing graphics for just money is doing it for the wrong reasons, and that's why they quit. The people that do graphics because it's fun and they love doing sigs for people, they continue on doing them regardless of pay or bank account.
Quote:Have separate grading categories for users depending on their skill level, money earnings, length of time on the site, whatever works the best. You can keep the level lower for the more experienced members so as to not create super inflated bank accounts by implementing both of these suggestions. But even if only the second suggestion is implemented, it will help to convince members to stick around, keep improving at their submissions, and generally increase their own talent and professionalism.
Giving more money to newer members for (possibly) lower quality graphics and less money to experienced members for making better work is not the right idea.
But this completely writes off anyone that does want to earn money from it. Why can't we encourage it as an earning opportunity as well as for the love of it, instead of only holding the gates shut to another avenue of revenue?
And the second point is literally what is happening in the contest right now. I get the downside of paying less to more experienced members, but I'm not talking millions here. Great makers should still be compensated well for their work, maybe a cap per week addition would help remove the inflation. Although personally, if you get to a billion dollars and you earned it, good for you in my book.
04-27-2020, 10:16 PMWasty Wrote: People doing graphics for just money is doing it for the wrong reasons, and that's why they quit. The people that do graphics because it's fun and they love doing sigs for people, they continue on doing them regardless of pay or bank account.
I definitely agree with that overall, but I don't think that directly applies here.
When people come to the SHL, they get told they have to earn money to maximize their TPE. Then they're told the 2 big options of earning money outside of contracts are doing media or graphics. Whether you love doing those or not, you're basically doing them for the money, at least to start. At least in the beginning, people are literally doing graphics/media for the money, especially if you're just starting out and have no idea about the league or what to write about/do graphics for.
Doing graphics for the love and fun of it does come with it down the road, but that's after some trial and error and knowing how to even use Photoshop/whatever properly.
04-27-2020, 10:16 PMWasty Wrote: People doing graphics for just money is doing it for the wrong reasons, and that's why they quit. The people that do graphics because it's fun and they love doing sigs for people, they continue on doing them regardless of pay or bank account.
I definitely agree with that overall, but I don't think that directly applies here.
When people come to the SHL, they get told they have to earn money to maximize their TPE. Then they're told the 2 big options of earning money outside of contracts are doing media or graphics. Whether you love doing those or not, you're basically doing them for the money, at least to start. At least in the beginning, people are literally doing graphics/media for the money, especially if you're just starting out and have no idea about the league or what to write about/do graphics for.
Doing graphics for the love and fun of it does come with it down the road, but that's after some trial and error and knowing how to even use Photoshop/whatever properly.
Hard agree here as a recent first gen. I have fun doing the content that I do, in video, writing, graphics, and the show, but I wouldn't be doing most of it if it wasn't for the money involved in it, even at my current bank.
04-27-2020, 10:16 PMWasty Wrote: People doing graphics for just money is doing it for the wrong reasons, and that's why they quit. The people that do graphics because it's fun and they love doing sigs for people, they continue on doing them regardless of pay or bank account.
I definitely agree with that overall, but I don't think that directly applies here.
When people come to the SHL, they get told they have to earn money to maximize their TPE. Then they're told the 2 big options of earning money outside of contracts are doing media or graphics. Whether you love doing those or not, you're basically doing them for the money, at least to start. At least in the beginning, people are literally doing graphics/media for the money, especially if you're just starting out and have no idea about the league or what to write about/do graphics for.
Doing graphics for the love and fun of it does come with it down the road, but that's after some trial and error and knowing how to even use Photoshop/whatever properly.
What I meant more isn’t to push people away from graphics, the money is there when they put more than just trying to make money. The work gets better when the motivation isn’t JUST money.
The more people quit it’s because they’re so dependent on thinking this is just for money and only produce graphics with just that motivation, which hurts their work, their development and their payout. Then they quit thinking there’s no money in graphics, but there is when you’re consistently making them and getting better NOT caring how much they’re doing to make but knowing they’re going to get paid atleast something.
When I started I wasn’t making 4/5s and 5/5s all the time but I continued to get better and consistently submitted graphics and made the bank I have now.
Just waiting for one week to do graphics? Of course there’s no money in graphics if you do it once a season. Consistent work gets consistent payouts.
#40 Niclas Wastlund - W - VANCOUVER WHALERS / MINNESOTA MONARCHS
04-27-2020, 10:42 PMDollarAndADream Wrote: I definitely agree with that overall, but I don't think that directly applies here.
When people come to the SHL, they get told they have to earn money to maximize their TPE. Then they're told the 2 big options of earning money outside of contracts are doing media or graphics. Whether you love doing those or not, you're basically doing them for the money, at least to start. At least in the beginning, people are literally doing graphics/media for the money, especially if you're just starting out and have no idea about the league or what to write about/do graphics for.
Doing graphics for the love and fun of it does come with it down the road, but that's after some trial and error and knowing how to even use Photoshop/whatever properly.
What I meant more isn’t to push people away from graphics, the money is there when they put more than just trying to make money. The work gets better when the motivation isn’t JUST money.
The more people quit it’s because they’re so dependent on thinking this is just for money and only produce graphics with just that motivation, which hurts their work, their development and their payout. Then they quit thinking there’s no money in graphics, but there is when you’re consistently making them and getting better NOT caring how much they’re doing to make but knowing they’re going to get paid atleast something.
When I started I wasn’t making 4/5s and 5/5s all the time but I continued to get better and consistently submitted graphics and made the bank I have now.
Just waiting for one week to do graphics? Of course there’s no money in graphics if you do it once a season. Consistent work gets consistent payouts.
And with that mentality wouldn't you want to nurture that enthusiasm and not drive it away with a super strong critique off the bat and barely any reward? Because you know that's exactly what is given, and it does absolutely nothing to help that person be interested in submitting anything ever again 95% of the time.
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