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*Katth* · 11-25-2020, 05:54 AM

11-24-2020, 08:44 PMBadWolf Wrote: I’m always open to creating more jobs. Lmk if you have ideas.

Hire people to update the calender and as Muted mentioned give more paid front office positions. Like scout and coach for setting lines.

S50 Challenge Cup Finals Game 7
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Samsung virtual assistant · 11-25-2020, 06:26 AM

im p against having any team position being paid by the league outside of GM, IMO the other "jobs" within the team should be compensated by the salary within the salary cap.

Bring back DC tho

Mayuu · 11-25-2020, 06:58 AM

11-25-2020, 06:26 AMJAJA SWEG DINGDONG Wrote: im p against having any team position being paid by the league outside of GM, IMO the other "jobs" within the team should be compensated by the salary within the salary cap.

Bring back DC tho

Who in their right mind would want to make the team they play for worse by doing a mgmt job?

RETIRED

Samsung virtual assistant · 11-25-2020, 07:20 AM

11-25-2020, 06:58 AMMayuu Wrote:
11-25-2020, 06:26 AMJAJA SWEG DINGDONG Wrote: im p against having any team position being paid by the league outside of GM, IMO the other "jobs" within the team should be compensated by the salary within the salary cap.

Bring back DC tho

Who in their right mind would want to make the team they play for worse by doing a mgmt job?

Someone who's good at coaching? I'd assume giving a great coach a higher salary would be worth it to get a couple extra wins out. IDK i think we're moving back into the whole cap circumvention part of the SHL if we pay people for non-vital jobs inside of teams for "league money", which is a big part of why the management bonuses we used to have earlier were removed.

Mayuu · 11-25-2020, 08:31 AM

11-25-2020, 07:20 AMJAJA SWEG DINGDONG Wrote:
11-25-2020, 06:58 AMMayuu Wrote: Who in their right mind would want to make the team they play for worse by doing a mgmt job?

Someone who's good at coaching? I'd assume giving a great coach a higher salary would be worth it to get a couple extra wins out. IDK i think we're moving back into the whole cap circumvention part of the SHL if we pay people for non-vital jobs inside of teams for "league money", which is a big part of why the management bonuses we used to have earlier were removed.

I mean that would be true if it weren't that this is fictional money made from nothing. While the cap is finite and wasting any of the cap puts you at an disadvantage compared to many other teams.
Taking a limited team resource and giving it away to be used as a resource there's infinite supply of is incredibly wasteful from a team perspective.

RETIRED

Samsung virtual assistant · 11-25-2020, 08:42 AM

11-25-2020, 08:31 AMMayuu Wrote:
11-25-2020, 07:20 AMJAJA SWEG DINGDONG Wrote: Someone who's good at coaching? I'd assume giving a great coach a higher salary would be worth it to get a couple extra wins out. IDK i think we're moving back into the whole cap circumvention part of the SHL if we pay people for non-vital jobs inside of teams for "league money", which is a big part of why the management bonuses we used to have earlier were removed.

I mean that would be true if it weren't that this is fictional money made from nothing. While the cap is finite and wasting any of the cap puts you at an disadvantage compared to many other teams.
Taking a limited team resource and giving it away to be used as a resource there's infinite supply of is incredibly wasteful from a team perspective.

Yes, it's fictional money, it's still not a vital job for the league though, so i don't see why it should be paid by the league either. If people wants to do it for free then that's cool, if a GM wants to reward them for doing it, that's cool too. I hardly see how it's the leagues problem if players aren't greedy enough to ask for more money for the work they do inside of the team.

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Mayuu · 11-25-2020, 08:52 AM

11-25-2020, 08:42 AMJAJA SWEG DINGDONG Wrote:
11-25-2020, 08:31 AMMayuu Wrote: I mean that would be true if it weren't that this is fictional money made from nothing. While the cap is finite and wasting any of the cap puts you at an disadvantage compared to many other teams.
Taking a limited team resource and giving it away to be used as a resource there's infinite supply of is incredibly wasteful from a team perspective.

Yes, it's fictional money, it's still not a vital job for the league though, so i don't see why it should be paid by the league either. If people wants to do it for free then that's cool, if a GM wants to reward them for doing it, that's cool too. I hardly see how it's the leagues problem if players aren't greedy enough to ask for more money for the work they do inside of the team.

That I agree with. The League shouldn't pay for jobs that doesn't benefit the league directly.

RETIRED

***luke*** · 11-25-2020, 09:21 AM

11-25-2020, 05:54 AMKatth Wrote:
11-24-2020, 08:44 PMBadWolf Wrote: I’m always open to creating more jobs. Lmk if you have ideas.

Hire people to update the calender and as Muted mentioned give more paid front office positions. Like scout and coach for setting lines.

Events department will be handling the calendar

And then the issue for paid positions in the SHL for scouting and coach is that teams will abuse it to skirt around the cap. Like how would we know if they actually helped with lines or scouting and are getting paid for that work.

I am for paying more people with jobs, I am glad that we have in the past 10 seasons, completely reformed how much we pay people for their hard work. How much departments grown and been created in this time. It’s just that they have to have a purpose. I am open to hear any and all ideas

***BadWolf*** · 11-25-2020, 09:55 AM

11-25-2020, 05:54 AMKatth Wrote:
11-24-2020, 08:44 PMBadWolf Wrote: I’m always open to creating more jobs. Lmk if you have ideas.

Hire people to update the calender and as Muted mentioned give more paid front office positions. Like scout and coach for setting lines.

Updating the calendar falls under the new events department. The head just got hired so we will see more jobs for that soon!

Edit: ya what luke said

Faelax · 11-25-2020, 09:58 AM

Turnover for the sake of turnover is bad, but I'm all for removing people who are apathetic/lazy/outright bad at their jobs.

*Katth* · 11-25-2020, 10:07 AM

11-25-2020, 09:21 AMluketd Wrote:
11-25-2020, 05:54 AMKatth Wrote: Hire people to update the calender and as Muted mentioned give more paid front office positions. Like scout and coach for setting lines.

Events department will be handling the calendar

And then the issue for paid positions in the SHL for scouting and coach is that teams will abuse it to skirt around the cap. Like how would we know if they actually helped with lines or scouting and are getting paid for that work.

I am for paying more people with jobs, I am glad that we have in the past 10 seasons, completely reformed how much we pay people for their hard work. How much departments grown and been created in this time. It’s just that they have to have a purpose. I am open to hear any and all ideas

I completely missed that we now have an events department, so good stuff.

I think the argument that it's going to be used to circumvent cap is used more often than anything else on this site to stop reform. With newly introduced tiers it's much harder to do so. I think it's not actually that hard to set a requirement for a GM to deliver proof that someone actually does set lines or is an active scout. I also didn't meant for it to be unlimited positions, but let's start with 1 a piece at let's say 1M or possibly 2M.

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***luke*** · 11-25-2020, 10:58 AM

11-25-2020, 10:07 AMKatth Wrote:
11-25-2020, 09:21 AMluketd Wrote: Events department will be handling the calendar

And then the issue for paid positions in the SHL for scouting and coach is that teams will abuse it to skirt around the cap. Like how would we know if they actually helped with lines or scouting and are getting paid for that work.

I am for paying more people with jobs, I am glad that we have in the past 10 seasons, completely reformed how much we pay people for their hard work. How much departments grown and been created in this time. It’s just that they have to have a purpose. I am open to hear any and all ideas

I completely missed that we now have an events department, so good stuff.

I think the argument that it's going to be used to circumvent cap is used more often than anything else on this site to stop reform. With newly introduced tiers it's much harder to do so. I think it's not actually that hard to set a requirement for a GM to deliver proof that someone actually does set lines or is an active scout. I also didn't meant for it to be unlimited positions, but let's start with 1 a piece at let's say 1M or possibly 2M.

For us, at the end of the day, we don’t want to see unfair advantages to teams. I know one of the older members can say more than I can about it. But there used to be management payments for scouts or coaches, and yes people used them correctly, but it also leads to paying people who just need the money. We can talk about proof, but for example a scout. What if a gm just gives the scout all the messages they have to send. And the scout just sends the pms. They do no work, provide proof and get paid. Or for coaches, how do we know that they actually helped. We are trying to cover every angle that people could cheat and use cap circumvention, I wish we could trust gms to pay people who actually put in the time and effort to scout and to the ones to coach. And if there is a better system or a way we can actually verify that would be amazing.

JayWhy · 11-25-2020, 11:36 AM

11-25-2020, 10:07 AMKatth Wrote:
11-25-2020, 09:21 AMluketd Wrote: Events department will be handling the calendar

And then the issue for paid positions in the SHL for scouting and coach is that teams will abuse it to skirt around the cap. Like how would we know if they actually helped with lines or scouting and are getting paid for that work.

I am for paying more people with jobs, I am glad that we have in the past 10 seasons, completely reformed how much we pay people for their hard work. How much departments grown and been created in this time. It’s just that they have to have a purpose. I am open to hear any and all ideas

I completely missed that we now have an events department, so good stuff.

I think the argument that it's going to be used to circumvent cap is used more often than anything else on this site to stop reform. With newly introduced tiers it's much harder to do so. I think it's not actually that hard to set a requirement for a GM to deliver proof that someone actually does set lines or is an active scout. I also didn't meant for it to be unlimited positions, but let's start with 1 a piece at let's say 1M or possibly 2M.

That's because we have actual history to show that that is how it is used. How do you prove scouting? What if their scouting is that they share a J LR with them and are just saying "I like this guy"? Do you require DMs to be shared? Is it just "hey we may draft you, how do you feel about joining the team?" Or is it deeper than that? How do you define something undefinable? What if they don't go deeper, or aren't able or willing to share those DMs, then you have to take their word for it and trust me GMs here will actively lie to get benefits, if they wouldn't we wouldn't see so many get punished so regularly for it. On top of that who reviews the proof, and how do we know that they're doing their part truly. Now we have more responsibility on HO as well.

I was here from the start, kid. I know how these things went. We had 8M management budgets. At the end of the season the GM would look at who had the lowest bank accounts and give them money out of that 8M so they kept updating. That 8M then got worked back into the actual cap so it had to be accounted for in contracts rather than be a "well yeah they did something for us" and we have no way to proof otherwise.

This gets abused any time it has been allowed, guaranteed. I get that it sounds like some great change, but it's literally 2 steps backward because we DID IT BEFORE.

Edit for other example: A new question that popped into my head, as a team that tries to compete I often trade our picks. Then we don't scout so have no proof of scouting. But our guys deserve the same benefit other teams get. Other teams can offer more money to people because of having picks, why should I be punished to effectively having less for trying to win? Now we have an issue of imbalance because by not having picks we then get screwed out of money for our players.

And what's to stop a team using it as a signing bonus? Hey, I can give you 2M extra if you send out this form to someone so I can "prove you scouted." Now they get the player, but a team who isn't offering that management bonus loses them, thus imbalance in the league and ways it can be used improperly.

An old man's dream ended. A young man's vision of the future opened wide. Young men have visions, old men have dreams. But the place for old men to dream is beside the fire.

Thanks to Jackson, Copenhagen, and Harry Hans!

GOING DOWN IN STYLE. TOAST4LYFE

ztevans · 11-25-2020, 11:48 AM

11-25-2020, 10:58 AMluketd Wrote: For us, at the end of the day, we don’t want to see unfair advantages to teams. I know one of the older members can say more than I can about it. But there used to be management payments for scouts or coaches, and yes people used them correctly, but it also leads to paying people who just need the money. We can talk about proof, but for example a scout. What if a gm just gives the scout all the messages they have to send. And the scout just sends the pms. They do no work, provide proof and get paid. Or for coaches, how do we know that they actually helped. We are trying to cover every angle that people could cheat and use cap circumvention, I wish we could trust gms to pay people who actually put in the time and effort to scout and to the ones to coach. And if there is a better system or a way we can actually verify that would be amazing.

Can't speak for SHL when management budget was removed (I think I was a Co-GM at the time but honestly don't remember) but I know in SMJHL HO, I did the math when we were considering removing management budget. Over the course of the 3-5 seasons leading up to its removal, only one or two teams out of eight consistently paid management personnel with management budget. The rest used it to offer FAs signing bonuses. And that was in juniors.

I say "one or two" because I know Detroit was one of them (shouts to @WannabeFinn) and want to say there was another, but can't remember who. It may have legit just been Detroit.

EDIT: To be more clear - The signing bonuses allowed teams to offer players more than the maximum allowed salary, which IIRC was $2m. For the sake of this post, let's say it was. You could offer an FA $2M, plus a $500k or 1M "management bonus" even though this was a player who had literally just joined the league and had never heard of Simon T until three hours ago. If you had management money still in your pocket and other teams had spent theirs, it gave you a leg-up in negotiations. Everyone knew what was actually going on.

ztevans · 11-25-2020, 11:52 AM

No it's cool forum I absolutely did not want to tag @WannabeFinn he smells anyways.

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