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S60 State of the Union
#16
(This post was last modified: 08-11-2021, 10:23 AM by Canadice.)

08-11-2021, 05:13 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Good stuff guys!

Really looking forward to see how things develop parity wise. While I don't quite share your enthusiastic assessment of the current situation, we've undoubtedly done a lot to adress this issue in recent seasons so I agree that now is not the time for even more changes, but to wait and see how some of the measures we took play out first.

I have a little thing to add regarding the season streamlining, I think the most important aspect to keep an eye on here is the season-to-offseason ratio, which might be even more important than the total season length. So basically how long is the regular season in relation to the playoffs and the off-season. Or in other words: How much of their time on this site do people on different teams have games going on for their team/player that they can watch, and how much of it do they spend sittling idly by just waiting for the new season to start.

This number has fluctuated a bit in recent years due to different season and off-season lengths and playoff systems, but I just think its important to remind yourself of it from time to time. While the community aspect of this site is huge, the games are still the core of it and whenever we get to a point where a significant portion of the league sits around with nothing to watch for 50% of their time here, this becomes an issue.

Just to make a quick calculation as an example (not necessarily taking real numbers):
6 week regular season
3 week playoffs
3 week off-season

Teams that miss the playoffs: 12 total weeks, 6 weeks playing time, 6 weeks downtime = 50% downtime (for 4 teams)
First round exits: 12 total weeks, 7 weeks playing time, 5 weeks downtime = 41% downtime (for 8 teams)
Everyone else: 12 total weeks, 8-9 weeks playing time, 3-4 weeks downtime = 25-33% downtime (8 teams)

So first off we would have to deem what amount of downtime we find acceptable and what is too much. I would probably say that about 1/3 of the season as downtime is fine, but everything 40%+ is too much. So in this example, 12 of our 20 teams would be sitting there with over 40% downtime and four of them, the non-playoff teams, are even spending half their time here doing nothing. i think this would be a situation where we would want to look into tweaking the numbers.

Now these numbers change depending depending on how we tweak the various season stages and of course its a delicate balance. Making the regular season shorter increases downtime for everyone, making it longer reduces downtime but also leads to higher simmer burnout and makes individual sims have less meaning. Shortening the playoffs would reduce downtime for almost everyone, but would also cut into what can be seen as the most important part of the season. Shortening the off-season would reduce downtime for everyone but is often not realistic and can also contribute to burnout for the people in positions of responsibility.

I just think this is something to keep an eye on while talking about streamlining the season, just so that we don't end up taking things away on the wrong end.

Great summary with some data to back it up!

Another thing to note is that downtime in the SHL (and SMJHL) doesn't necessarily mean that the users have nothing to do. The IIHF and WJC should be an important part of filling the hole between the seasons but with a shortened off-season those tournaments will become even more stressed and forgotten among the many things that occur in that time.

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#17

i hate this i quit

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#18

When will we be getting the 4th line back?

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09-05-2018, 10:04 PMBeaver Wrote: Wow look what the PT affiliation has done to our pristine league.
12-19-2018, 12:31 AMBeaver Wrote: I personally blame the PT affiliation for handing out massive amounts of free TPE to all these players, inflating the TPE they're at when they get called up.
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#19

Yeah, barring there being some wacky exploit for having players on the 4th line (which there isn't), I don't understand why they're illegal. If teams want to play players there, and players want to play there, let them

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#20

08-11-2021, 11:21 AMCampinKiller Wrote: Yeah, barring there being some wacky exploit for having players on the 4th line (which there isn't), I don't understand why they're illegal. If teams want to play players there, and players want to play there, let them

okay, so having a single or two players on a line with 0 minutes does allow for some double shifting of top line guys. Thats why the 3 full lines rule exists (not sure how its phrased). having minutes on an unfilled line i believe would send out a different full line i believe. The issue might be that the 4th line with minutes runs the teams best 3 skaters on that line essentially double shifting those players, but I have not seen this occur.
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#21

08-10-2021, 10:40 PMgoldenglutes Wrote: I think you're understating the parity changes a bit, they made a bigger difference than those numbers make it seem. the standard deviation for points percentage dropped from ~0.184 in S59 to ~0.167 in S60. that's huge, the teams are now much closer than before

I'm not saying we're at the right level of parity yet, but just giving some more representative numbers for people to see

Thanks for sharing this Glutes. I took the average that was most easy for me to calculate and then figured that I’d emphasis the improvements beyond that average verbally, but your numbers are also really encouraging, I think all in all it’s apparent we’ve made steps in the right direction regarding parity, it’s been very encouraging to see.

08-11-2021, 04:45 AMSegi Wrote: I think this new rule will inevitably lead to some people waiting to sign new contracts until after regression. With the planned 8 week season, it's gonna be extremely tight to get the file ready before the next preseason is planned to start.

Also in general, I fear the new schedule might put a lot of pressure on a lot of people in GM and other behind the scenes jobs. Can the league afford to force so many people to do their jobs in such a short time?

Thanks for the reply Segi! We had some pretty fruitful conversation about the new extensions rule in GM Chat last night and we’re looking into adding a footnote that will allow players in Regression to sign at whatever their listed Regression amount is during the offseason, to avoid them needing to hold off for their Regression to actually be processed on their player page.

So I’ll just clarify something with the shortened schedule that I wasn’t completely clear about in the original post. Our gameplan for shortening the season isn’t just going to be shaving a bunch of time off the Offseason, we’re streamlining various things throughout the season just so they don’t drag as long. The introduction of a Sim Team allows us to shorten the regular season to be a consistent length every season, we no longer have to pause for playoff predictions in the move to 16-team playoffs, so we’re likely going to pull just a few days from the offseason, which we feel won’t rush the various departments and GMs in their offseason work. The plan for streamlining is actually just going to be bringing us back to the offseason lengths we operated with before the S50s, which didn’t post any hitches.

All in all, this idea is not being implemented this offseason. We’re still very much in need of conversations with SMJHL HO, IIHF and WJC HO, Updaters, Budget Team, Events team, and many others before we can put this plan in motion, so we’ll absolutely be listening to all these parties before we make a decision. The main goal here, in my opinion, is consistency, which will allow us to plan important dates months in advance, the shortening is more of a secondary goal.

08-11-2021, 05:13 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Good stuff guys!

Really looking forward to see how things develop parity wise. While I don't quite share your enthusiastic assessment of the current situation, we've undoubtedly done a lot to adress this issue in recent seasons so I agree that now is not the time for even more changes, but to wait and see how some of the measures we took play out first.

I have a little thing to add regarding the season streamlining, I think the most important aspect to keep an eye on here is the season-to-offseason ratio, which might be even more important than the total season length. So basically how long is the regular season in relation to the playoffs and the off-season. Or in other words: How much of their time on this site do people on different teams have games going on for their team/player that they can watch, and how much of it do they spend sittling idly by just waiting for the new season to start.

This number has fluctuated a bit in recent years due to different season and off-season lengths and playoff systems, but I just think its important to remind yourself of it from time to time. While the community aspect of this site is huge, the games are still the core of it and whenever we get to a point where a significant portion of the league sits around with nothing to watch for 50% of their time here, this becomes an issue.

Just to make a quick calculation as an example (not necessarily taking real numbers):
6 week regular season
3 week playoffs
3 week off-season

Teams that miss the playoffs: 12 total weeks, 6 weeks playing time, 6 weeks downtime = 50% downtime (for 4 teams)
First round exits: 12 total weeks, 7 weeks playing time, 5 weeks downtime = 41% downtime (for 8 teams)
Everyone else: 12 total weeks, 8-9 weeks playing time, 3-4 weeks downtime = 25-33% downtime (8 teams)

So first off we would have to deem what amount of downtime we find acceptable and what is too much. I would probably say that about 1/3 of the season as downtime is fine, but everything 40%+ is too much. So in this example, 12 of our 20 teams would be sitting there with over 40% downtime and four of them, the non-playoff teams, are even spending half their time here doing nothing. i think this would be a situation where we would want to look into tweaking the numbers.

Now these numbers change depending depending on how we tweak the various season stages and of course its a delicate balance. Making the regular season shorter increases downtime for everyone, making it longer reduces downtime but also leads to higher simmer burnout and makes individual sims have less meaning. Shortening the playoffs would reduce downtime for almost everyone, but would also cut into what can be seen as the most important part of the season. Shortening the off-season would reduce downtime for everyone but is often not realistic and can also contribute to burnout for the people in positions of responsibility.

I just think this is something to keep an eye on while talking about streamlining the season, just so that we don't end up taking things away on the wrong end.

Thanks for sharing this RED! Mostly in agreement with a good portion of this, long downtimes between season’s, whether it be from the regular season, playoffs or offseason is a big part of why we’re looking into trimming the fat so to speak, and just making it so that every portion of a standard season is at a proper length but doesn’t overstay its welcome.

Like I said above to Segi, the streamlined season is very much a rough idea more than a concrete plan right now. We have a lot of departments to discuss with and a lot of discussing to do amongst ourselves, so when this idea is more fleshed out and we have all the affected departments on board, we’ll be able to pitch this idea again in a way thats more comfortable for everyone.

08-11-2021, 06:09 AMgolden_apricot Wrote: Im lost as to why 4th line minutes are even an issue? Unless it double shifts players from separate lines together in that 4th line (which was the case with having uneven lines through adding a player to the 4th line) who cares, it will just send out one of the first three line for the remaining minutes.

I think a big part of it from us is to just avoid GMs having the sim decide what the best possible line to put out is (line 4 will put out lines 1-3 via what the sim decides is best). We want decisions like this to be a responsibility of the GMs, and not the sim just putting them in the best possible position, even if it is just a 4th line. Like you said, this is something really minor, so nothing of value is lost by this change, it just further emphasizes that we are a 3-line league, makes the lineup decisions solely a responsibility of GMs and Coaches, and not just throwing 4th line minutes in to have the sim put out whatever is best.

08-11-2021, 09:03 AMOtrebor13 Wrote: That analytics tool by @Canadice is fantastic. Excellent work!

@nour would it be possible to add the analytics link to the "More" dropdown at the top of the forum for easy access?

Definitely! It’s something we’ve discussed already, we’ll have it as a part of the site’s menus soon Smile

08-11-2021, 10:55 AMBlastmeaway Wrote: When will we be getting the 4th line back?

Idk if this is a serious ask or a meme, but if it’s a serious one I can answer if you would like just lemme know Smile
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#22

08-11-2021, 11:27 AMgolden_apricot Wrote:
08-11-2021, 11:21 AMCampinKiller Wrote: Yeah, barring there being some wacky exploit for having players on the 4th line (which there isn't), I don't understand why they're illegal. If teams want to play players there, and players want to play there, let them

okay, so having a single or two players on a line with 0 minutes does allow for some double shifting of top line guys. Thats why the 3 full lines rule exists (not sure how its phrased). having minutes on an unfilled line i believe would send out a different full line i believe. The issue might be that the 4th line with minutes runs the teams best 3 skaters on that line essentially double shifting those players, but I have not seen this occur.

No I know that exists, I probably should’ve been clearer in saying a full 4th line (ie. 3 players not on another line)

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#23

08-11-2021, 11:32 AMnour Wrote:
08-11-2021, 10:55 AMBlastmeaway Wrote: When will we be getting the 4th line back?

Idk if this is a serious ask or a meme, but if it’s a serious one I can answer if you would like just lemme know Smile

I'd like to know please give 4th lines

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#24

I don't think shorter seasons are the answer to finding consistency. I worry about GMs and other league job-holders who need downtime between seasons - if they do not get time to decompress between season to season, it just ups the stress level and will lead to faster burnout.



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#25

08-11-2021, 11:32 AMnour Wrote:
08-11-2021, 04:45 AMSegi Wrote: I think this new rule will inevitably lead to some people waiting to sign new contracts until after regression. With the planned 8 week season, it's gonna be extremely tight to get the file ready before the next preseason is planned to start.

Also in general, I fear the new schedule might put a lot of pressure on a lot of people in GM and other behind the scenes jobs. Can the league afford to force so many people to do their jobs in such a short time?

Thanks for the reply Segi! We had some pretty fruitful conversation about the new extensions rule in GM Chat last night and we’re looking into adding a footnote that will allow players in Regression to sign at whatever their listed Regression amount is during the offseason, to avoid them needing to hold off for their Regression to actually be processed on their player page.

So I’ll just clarify something with the shortened schedule that I wasn’t completely clear about in the original post. Our gameplan for shortening the season isn’t just going to be shaving a bunch of time off the Offseason, we’re streamlining various things throughout the season just so they don’t drag as long. The introduction of a Sim Team allows us to shorten the regular season to be a consistent length every season, we no longer have to pause for playoff predictions in the move to 16-team playoffs, so we’re likely going to pull just a few days from the offseason, which we feel won’t rush the various departments and GMs in their offseason work. The plan for streamlining is actually just going to be bringing us back to the offseason lengths we operated with before the S50s, which didn’t post any hitches.

All in all, this idea is not being implemented this offseason. We’re still very much in need of conversations with SMJHL HO, IIHF and WJC HO, Updaters, Budget Team, Events team, and many others before we can put this plan in motion, so we’ll absolutely be listening to all these parties before we make a decision. The main goal here, in my opinion, is consistency, which will allow us to plan important dates months in advance, the shortening is more of a secondary goal.

Appreciate the thought out reply! Counting the post regression number for contracts does make a lot of sense to me and should help speeding the whole thing up a bit.

I can get very much behind streamlining the seasons more and shaving a couple of days off the current off season might work. Though we do have to keep in mind that preparing the file takes a longer time compared to before the S50s.

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#26

08-11-2021, 09:03 AMOtrebor13 Wrote: That analytics tool by @Canadice is fantastic. Excellent work!

@nour would it be possible to add the analytics link to the "More" dropdown at the top of the forum for easy access?
Asking Nour when you know the guy who can actually do it.. PFFFFFFTTT

Done btw Smile

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#27

So regarding tiers, does it then make sense to just not update for a few weeks to keep my player TPE under a threshhold? that seems skeevy, but I dont really know how else to track TPE. Maybe one day when we get automatic updates this issue will disappear.

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#28

08-11-2021, 01:00 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote:
08-11-2021, 09:03 AMOtrebor13 Wrote: That analytics tool by @Canadice is fantastic. Excellent work!

@nour would it be possible to add the analytics link to the "More" dropdown at the top of the forum for easy access?
Asking Nour when you know the guy who can actually do it.. PFFFFFFTTT

Done btw Smile

Let's goooo! Thanks Teddy! <3

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#29

Parity? More like parody am i right fellas




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#30

08-11-2021, 12:51 PMroastpuff Wrote: I don't think shorter seasons are the answer to finding consistency. I worry about GMs and other league job-holders who need downtime between seasons - if they do not get time to decompress between season to season, it just ups the stress level and will lead to faster burnout.

The off-season isn't being hit all too hard by the shortening. The sim team is going to be the biggest help to this, with a sim team we can fit a few more games during each sim and shorten the regular season by a few days, not skip Sundays during the playoffs and start the next round om the evening if game 7s are finished during an afternoon sim.

I know Luke is working on a presentable schedule that will hopefully put people's minds to ease.

Implementing it this offseason is extremely unlikely because of the Juniors expansion.

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