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scudmuffin19 · 01-24-2024, 02:04 PM

@ all job heads,

Why do applications for jobs you post actually require those applying to have a second resume on hand? One resume for the real world is enough of a pain in the ass yet we actually require that you go out of your way and make a second one? There's not a single job in the history of sim leagues worth making a second resume for, not even Head Office jobs. Maybe commissioner but you should be able to discern from a fkin lunatic (like me) and someone competent.

For clarity i just feel like bitching about this again. i didnt apply for anything

***sve7en*** · 01-24-2024, 02:13 PM

If you don't have the time to summarize why you might be good for a site job, you might not have enough time for the actual job.

Rangerjase · 01-24-2024, 02:14 PM

01-24-2024, 02:04 PMscudmuffin19 Wrote: @ all job heads,

Why do applications for jobs you post actually require those applying to have a second resume on hand? One resume for the real world is enough of a pain in the ass yet we actually require that you go out of your way and make a second one? There's not a single job in the history of sim leagues worth making a second resume for, not even Head Office jobs. Maybe commissioner but you should be able to discern from a fkin lunatic (like me) and someone competent.

For clarity i just feel like bitching about this again. i didnt apply for anything

Hiya Scud,

I think applications for jobs are pretty important for the department head to have an idea of WHO they are hiring. Here is part of what I asked for as part of someones applications.

Code:
Username:

Player Name:

Seasons in the league:

Relevant job experience:

Other general information:

Why you think you would be a good fit:

Random things you'd like to add:

I think this is pretty basic information. What I end up getting out of an application shows how much effort someone is willing to put in.

With around 400 people in the league its pretty hard to know everybody and this is a good quick and easy way for me to get a basic handle on someone whether I know them or not.

If someone doesn't want to put the effort into something as simple as this, it shows that they won't want to put effort into the job either. That's just my take.

***Aleris*** · 01-24-2024, 02:44 PM

I don't need a resume. My dad owns the league.

scudmuffin19 · 01-24-2024, 10:29 PM

01-24-2024, 02:14 PMRangerjase Wrote: Hiya Scud,

I think applications for jobs are pretty important for the department head to have an idea of WHO they are hiring. Here is part of what I asked for as part of someone's applications.

Code:
Username: Player Name: Seasons in the league: Relevant job experience: Other general information: Why you think you would be a good fit: Random things you'd like to add:

I think this is pretty basic information. What I end up getting out of an application shows how much effort someone is willing to put in.

With around 400 people in the league, it's pretty hard to know everybody and this is a good quick and easy way for me to get a basic handle on someone whether I know them or not.

If someone doesn't want to put the effort into something as simple as this, it shows that they won't want to put effort into the job either. That's just my take.

I know we've discussed this before, and I know we disagree on the approach. But let's have it again and see if anything different comes out of it.

As a sim league, these jobs are volunteer work with league cash to further player development as plus. It's a sim league though, and this is ultimately a hobby, and instead of expecting someone to take the time and put together an application with the effort rivalling that of a professional resume, I would rather interview the user and ask those same questions from the start. I want to get to know the other user not from a cookie cutter PDF outline, but from actually talking to them and asking the questions myself and get a personal and real-time answer. I can see the application method you mentioned being viable for more prominent positions (HO), but below that I don't see any benefit from making someone prepare a professional level document when you can just simply have them message you or the hiring user and interview directly with them, especially as a new user who doesn't have much to go on. I hope one day this approach is more widely accepted in this league and more users are able to confidently apply for a job and help keep this league stable and growing.

***Frenchie*** · 01-24-2024, 10:43 PM

01-24-2024, 10:29 PMscudmuffin19 Wrote: I know we've discussed this before, and I know we disagree on the approach. But let's have it again and see if anything different comes out of it.

As a sim league, these jobs are volunteer work with league cash to further player development as plus. It's a sim league though, and this is ultimately a hobby, and instead of expecting someone to take the time and put together an application with the effort rivalling that of a professional resume, I would rather interview the user and ask those same questions from the start. I want to get to know the other user not from a cookie cutter PDF outline, but from actually talking to them and asking the questions myself and get a personal and real-time answer. I can see the application method you mentioned being viable for more prominent positions (HO), but below that I don't see any benefit from making someone prepare a professional level document when you can just simply have them message you or the hiring user and interview directly with them, especially as a new user who doesn't have much to go on. I hope one day this approach is more widely accepted in this league and more users are able to confidently apply for a job and help keep this league stable and growing.

I don't know at what point you started thinking we expect a ''professional resume''. Jase pasted what's usually required, and users are free to go as much in detail based off that, or take whatever form they will, to apply for jobs. If they want to put in a lot of effort into their app being made in Word w/ formatting, who are we to stop them? What I do know is never from my time in HO has this been a requirement, expectation or criteria for someone to successfully get a job, and I would provide multiple examples of hirings that didn't do just this, but that would be indulging a premise that doesn't work from the start. To wrap this up, let's just use something you said, that ''this is volunteer work'', that ''it's a sim league though, and this is ultimately a hobby'', this also applies to HO, and we respectfully have enough things to worry about from people having issues about sims being late, missed swaps, HoF being late, GM tasks not being on time, X or Y user being a naughty, general league maintenance and ongoing development projects or whatever, that I don't think systematically conducting interviews for every position that we'd subjectively judge as to being non-prominent (I don't even know where you draw the line) is realistic.

I get its a hobby, I get nobody is paid fort this, and I understand it can be frustrating to feel across the grain on some things, but I don't know that this is painting an accurate picture of reality.

@"jason kranz" sig elite / @sulovilen elite sig

*JURT* · 01-24-2024, 11:24 PM

01-24-2024, 10:43 PMFrenchie Wrote: To wrap this up, let's just use something you said, that ''this is volunteer work'', that ''it's a sim league though, and this is ultimately a hobby'', this also applies to HO

This is the thing here, that's the whole story.

Interviews are great in theory, but in reality just figuring out a time that would work for an interview and then taking the time to DM through the whole thing is going to require more time from both the people who hire and the applicants.

Plus, you know, real life. You'd need to either

A. Both block a significant chunk of time in your real life schedule to do it. If you ask me, that's a far bigger ask than filling out any form or even submitting a full resume (even tho what HO asks for is far from a full resume imo). Plus, if something comes up IRL and you need to reschedule, the hiring process will be impossible to complete, or HO will go with someone they managed to fully interview and then it's "HO isn't available enough to do the interviews".

B. Do it while doing other stuff, like be at work or whatever people avoid doing when they're on the SHL, and then the interview isn't really properly made.

C. Forget about the "setting a specific interview time" part of the argument above and do it with replies coming whenever the next person has a bit of time to reply, which I guess can work for scouting but would lead to interviews that aren't fluid, things might be skipped, etc. And, obviously, much harder to hire someone in a timely manner if you do that, do you put a deadline by which the interview must be done, instead of a deadline by which the application form must be sent in? Again, if the times just don't align for the applicant and the hiring person/committee, you get screwed because your free time didn't line up with the other person's and the interview dragged on too long. You obviously can't put a deadline to apply and then take however long it takes to run the interview like that, it'll take way too long to hire someone.

So sure, the current application process by form isn't perfect, but the pros outweigh the cons of another system. And I also agree that in a case where there are two or more obviously good candidates on paper, HO/the committee head/whoever is hiring should, as much as possible (always considering the time constraint to hire and the other tasks at hand), try asking more questions to really figure out who's the best based on direct interaction. But if one application is far superior on paper, explaining previous roles that are relevant and maybe outlining some ideas to put forward if hired, and other stuff like that, and meanwhile the other application basically just says "hire me cause I'd like it I think I'd be good" without outlining any reason why, there's no way HO should go out of their way to hold people's hand to make sure they feel like they have made the best case possible for themselves.

ACapitalChicago · 01-24-2024, 11:44 PM

01-24-2024, 11:24 PMJURT Wrote: there's no way HO should go out of their way to hold people's hand to make sure they feel like they have made the best case possible for themselves.

Well said. Highlighting this part, we literally have an entire applications guide that practically writes it for you.

Also, submitting an application to HO is too much work, but having to prepare for and do an interview isn't?

S66 Damian Littleton

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scudmuffin19 · 01-25-2024, 12:14 AM

im gettin cooked

scudmuffin19 · 01-25-2024, 12:27 AM

01-24-2024, 02:13 PMsve7en Wrote: If you don't have the time to summarize why you might be good for a site job, you might not have enough time for the actual job.

i care more about the real job to spend time on prepping an app for a site job tbf

scudmuffin19 · 01-25-2024, 12:32 AM

"and we respectfully have enough things to worry about from people having issues about sims being late, missed swaps, HoF being late, GM tasks not being on time, X or Y user being a naughty, general league maintenance and ongoing development projects or whatever"

Respectfully please do not insult my intelligence and assume that I have zero idea what goes on in HO. I may have had a minimal presence at best during my tenure but I am very aware of what goes on. I truly dont think interviews are hand-holding, and I truly hope none of y'all ever get into management positions in your careers with that mindset. If you're already there, please change.

trella · 01-25-2024, 09:04 AM

Resume is a verb im confused why are you using it as a noun

Thanks to @karey and @JSS for the sigs!

Former USA Fed Head, Carolina Kraken Co-GM, Tampa Bay Barracuda GM

***Seany148*** · 01-25-2024, 09:25 AM

I just want to say HFFO asked for a professionnal journalist article of 3k words for him to draft me
y'all have it easy in the job apps

***luke*** · 01-25-2024, 09:31 AM

As someone who hired for multiple positions on the site. You just ask for basic info so you have something to go off of. So you don’t get pm of “I apply”
Then the amount of effort you get in an app depends on the person. When you have like 6 or 7 apps for 2 or 3 positions.

For most jobs it just comes down to “do I trust you to do X task I give you”
Do I trust you to grade media on time
Do I trust you to update the history section
Do I trust you to process contracts
Do I trust you to be a rookie mentor

Chevy · 01-25-2024, 10:22 AM

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