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***Frenchie*** · 09-08-2024, 03:34 PM

I'll say it here because i've already had this discussion with some other quebec folks from the site, but as a very prideful quebecer, I don't support an IIHF Quebec federation. This has nothing to do with how I feel about QC, about its cultural and political history since the 1600's or about my stance on independence or other political aspects of it. I also wanna say this is not against Gwen, as a matter of fact we talked and I made sure to clarify this is not me being bitter about her application winning over mine, but about the nation choice itself.

Quebec is a nation, yes, but it isn't a country. However I or others feel about it, that's the world we live in. We can go on and on about whether or not the SHL has a big user base from there, whether or not there's a more significant hockey culture there or not, its a moot point on that premise alone. Wherever we individually draw the line as far as what should and shouldn't stand in terms of a valid choice of a nation, I myself draw mine based off of official IRL IIHF membership. The proposed shortlist in this hiring post are all IIHF member nations, and to me that makes them valid as a choice, however we feel about it. I struggle with the argument i've seen that Quebec is a more realistic choice when all the listed nations are literally listed as being contributing members of the IIHF, same for all the existing ones (outside of Independent Russia). To add to this, the FIFA comparisons literally holds no weight. Both Scotland and Wales have official FIFA recognition, make this essentially an apples vs. bananas argument, not really holding.

Now, if this makes sense or no, if this should be how the SHL-IIHF should be or no, that's something up for debate, but not something that has been determined before. The previous teams that have featured in the competition were all officially recognized nations, leading to believe this is the gold standard. If IIHF HO had wanted to move away from this, that's one thing, but from the obvious backlash this was going to get, something we knew from as far back as when France was created to replace Austria and Quebec had been pitched, there would've been an opportunity to survey the community about steering off into a perhaps less realistic path, but one that could be more enjoyable. It would have avoided this entire reaction, which again i'm not saying is warranted, despite being opposed for my own reasons.

The idea that this would help reinvigorate the interest in IIHF is a bit of a gamble. Whilst I appreciate the effort of trying to switch things up, and to tie into my point about surveying the community, this essentially makes a premise of ''not feeling represented is a problem with IIHF''. While I don't think this is what HO had in mind, there is still questions to be raised about figuring out a solution to an issue you've yet to properly assess. From my time here and for as much as I can remember (please tell me I'm wrong if I am, I genuinely can't recall), there hasn't been any attempt at trying to understand why interest is stagnant at best and diminishing at worst (my own perception). I can see how the quebecers might feel more inclined to participate now that there is a fed, but getting to play with your friends and people you enjoy on the site was already possible, so I don't think this moves the needle as much as it can seem like it does. Adversely, the reaction you're getting points to the opposite effect of people's interest being lowered, to where it might be a net zero change in terms of IIHF engagement, but that's just the eye test I'm giving it. There's also the case of potentially alienating the Canadian federation members, and splitting that fed up should've been, IMO, a non-starter, but alas.

Now, like I said, the choice of Gwen is absolutely spot on, I think something that helped me get started in this league was getting to lead Ireland a month into my time in the league, and Gwen is already much farther along her path in the league than I was at that moment, so its a certainty that she'll do an amazing job for the IIHF, which is why the choice is puzzling. I've seen arty mention the user and how energetic and enthused they were was the real big factor, and I respect that, but AFAIK her app also included Iceland, so why not go that route?

All in all, what's done is done, and at this point I wish nothing but the best to the Quebec federation, I hope to see a story like I was fortunate to experience in Ireland, that of a small nation being developed into a multiple gold medal winning team of great people!

Oh also, we're all entitled to our opinions, but let's at least be constructive about it.

Waters · 09-08-2024, 03:42 PM

09-08-2024, 02:41 PMslothfacekilla Wrote: You calling other people being ignorant on global situations cringe while dropping this is a chefs kiss I have to say

im sorry dude please find the time where 49.5% of texas or cascadia voted for independence within the last 100 years id love to hear about it

actually, find me a person alive that voted on a referendum for these, or has heard of a terrorist movement from these places that captured federal workers as hostages

Waters · 09-08-2024, 03:43 PM

09-08-2024, 03:06 PMFrenchie Wrote: The reason the other countries don't succeed has nothing to do with the amount of users from there.

i think its part of it, absolutely. People dont associate with those places, the player pool willing to create or play there is lower.

***Frenchie*** · 09-08-2024, 03:52 PM

09-08-2024, 03:43 PMWaters Wrote: i think its part of it, absolutely. People dont associate with those places, the player pool willing to create or play there is lower.

If I was able to do it with Ireland, then all the other small nations should be able to. The winning team of S71 had 4 irish creates, one of which was the fed head. The winning team of S77 had 3, one of which was an irish recreate from a user I recruited for the S71 gold, the other two being mainstays from the early days. I don't think people had interest in Ireland as a country more than they had interest in the plan I had and the role I pitched them. This isn't to call anyone out, but with proper planning and good recruiting, smaller feds absolutely can win despite not having a massive pool of initial creates, looking at Latvia for example as a small fed who's been very active in recruiting and is on their way to a gold medal win sooner or later. This might be circumstantial, but nonetheless an example of it not mattering as much IMO.

Waters · 09-08-2024, 03:56 PM

09-08-2024, 03:52 PMFrenchie Wrote: If I was able to do it with Ireland, then all the other small nations should be able to. The winning team of S71 had 4 irish creates, one of which was the fed head. The winning team of S77 had 3, one of which was an irish recreate from a user I recruited for the S71 gold, the other two being mainstays from the early days. I don't think people had interest in Ireland as a country more than they had interest in the plan I had and the role I pitched them. This isn't to call anyone out, but with proper planning and good recruiting, smaller feds absolutely can win despite not having a massive pool of initial creates, looking at Latvia for example as a small fed who's been very active in recruiting and is on their way to a gold medal win sooner or later. This might be circumstantial, but nonetheless an example of it not mattering as much IMO.

I'm not saying its a perfect 1:1 correlation but there's absolutely something there. Additionally, Ireland has been a successful IIHF(SHL IIHF) fed for probably 10 IRL years, and Latvian users used to be one of the biggest communities on the site. There's much more of a core to fall back on than any of the other options here. smaller feds can win, and i admire the people who put in the work to make that happen, but i think you'd much rather add a fed that has that user base vs one that has to be built up from scratch.

Waters · 09-08-2024, 04:02 PM

09-08-2024, 12:02 PMtrella Wrote: @Waters to follow up, I really wouldn’t have a problem if Quebec was getting a team through an IIHF expansion or by removing one of the smaller and less populated nations. But removing russia is just plain wrong imo, current events aside. Especially when there were applicants to save the nation

I respect that and honestly I think I agree. I don't know who the applicants were, but Russia really should have a fed, you're absolutely right. That being said, if the commish office decided to go elsewhere, I think Quebec is as good of a pick as you're going to get.

***Frenchie*** · 09-08-2024, 04:07 PM

09-08-2024, 03:56 PMWaters Wrote: i think you'd much rather add a fed that has that user base vs one that has to be built up from scratch.

I get your point, and I touched on it in my beeg beeg message, its a gamble, because that assumes all those players (18 actives according to IIHF HO) would transfer there or recreate there if given the chance. Its a gamble probably one that's a bit more safe than having to create one from scratch. I think the chance for success is good given that, its not something i'm against or I though unfeasible, just not something I personally think fits within the current ecosystem for the reasons I touched on.

***HabsFanFromOntario*** · 09-08-2024, 04:14 PM

09-08-2024, 12:02 PMtrella Wrote: @Waters to follow up, I really wouldn’t have a problem if Quebec was getting a team through an IIHF expansion or by removing one of the smaller and less populated nations. But removing russia is just plain wrong imo, current events aside. Especially when there were applicants to save the nation

Russia wasn't even the second option if you read through.

**Lime** · 09-08-2024, 08:26 PM

09-08-2024, 03:34 PMFrenchie Wrote: Wherever we individually draw the line as far as what should and shouldn't stand in terms of a valid choice of a nation, I myself draw mine based off of official IRL IIHF membership. The proposed shortlist in this hiring post are all IIHF member nations, and to me that makes them valid as a choice, however we feel about it. I struggle with the argument i've seen that Quebec is a more realistic choice when all the listed nations are literally listed as being contributing members of the IIHF, same for all the existing ones (outside of Independent Russia). To add to this, the FIFA comparisons literally holds no weight. Both Scotland and Wales have official FIFA recognition, make this essentially an apples vs. bananas argument, not really holding.

I think you are entirely missing the point of why I brought those countries up... There is already precedent in a major sports federation for including non-states in their system. Valid choice of a nation should be based on precedent and demand. IIHF does not include Scotland and Wales because there simply isn't a demand for it. If you are really hung up on hockey precedent, note that Hong Kong is a long-standing IIHF member. It is important to realize that the SHL IIHF is not the IRL IIHF and has different demands and therefore should weigh its needs independently. I have no idea how active a Quebec team would be versus an Italian team etc. but I don't think it is in any way outside the scope of realism for a simulation hockey league.

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