I generally appreciate you, Seany, but I'ma be honest: this kind of stuff is why I don't sim anymore.
There is a serious problem in this league with our culture. I'll use the sim, since it's the one I know best but I know it happens in other areas.
It starts small; an issue that really should be fixed, but life happens. In this case, the sim is late. Somebody comments on it in the appropriate place, in this case it's GM chat, and gets a dissatisfying answer, the file is being worked on. Soon enough, whether they mean to or not, it gets spread in a way that is dissatisfying to more people, and so the complaints begin to pour in. The issue gets casually joked about and shit on. "Aha-ha, sim late" "Sim Wen" "Will there ever be a sim?!"
A solution is proposed. In the case of the sim team, it's hiring more simmers.
The complaints stop immediately, at least where the person who proposed the solution can see them. No one wants to acknowledge the hiring thread, except to jokingly suggest people for it like some sort of Hunger Games tribute. No one else has a better solution, but almost everybody wants to say there should be *A* solution out there. Just not with them.
And then the next season rolls around. Various whiners can't afford training. They inevitably blame the people who hold 5 jobs for taking all of the jobs. The simmer hiring thread is still open.
Yea some things were said about media graders a few months ago. Remember when a user quit because their media was deemed invalid? Rather an appeal they just threw a moody and quit the site. It’s curious how you lot choose who or what to defend. Good to know where the line is. Media graders, PT team, fair game. But simmers are a no no.
12-19-2024, 06:37 AMLeoben Wrote: Yea some things were said about media graders a few months ago. Remember when a user quit because their media was deemed invalid? Rather an appeal they just threw a moody and quit the site. It’s curious how you lot choose who or what to defend. Good to know where the line is. Media graders, PT team, fair game. But simmers are a no no.
Hey man, I wanted to respond to this because I think there's a little confusion here. The last time I remember somebody blowing up at the media team, I actually was right there discussing it with them and trying to work through the issue (I think @MikeLiut probably remembers the conversation we had about the great audiobook fiasco). I'm not sure when somebody yelled at the PT team last, but if it's brought to me, I will go to bat for those other teams of volunteers any day of the week.
The truth is, media and pt graders just don't have the same visibility that simmers do. Those jobs don't have half the site looking over their shoulder every second of the time they're doing their jobs, they don't have people posting "WEN MEDIA GRADE?" a half hour after a scheduled time (because as far as I know, most of their work doesn't have a hard deadline that the entire site is aware of). If one media grader or PT grader gets sick and doesn't work one day, the entire site doesn't come knocking on their door demanding to know where they are.
Like I said, if people are targeting people in those positions and I hear about it, I will do what I can to put a stop to it, but that's nowhere near on the same scale as the vitriol the sim team receives on a regular basis, or the incredibly tight deadlines and standards they have for the work they do. It's just not the same thing, and comparing it is kind of apples and oranges.
12-19-2024, 01:47 AM_Blitz_ Wrote: I generally appreciate you, Seany, but I'ma be honest: this kind of stuff is why I don't sim anymore.
There is a serious problem in this league with our culture. I'll use the sim, since it's the one I know best but I know it happens in other areas.
It starts small; an issue that really should be fixed, but life happens. In this case, the sim is late. Somebody comments on it in the appropriate place, in this case it's GM chat, and gets a dissatisfying answer, the file is being worked on. Soon enough, whether they mean to or not, it gets spread in a way that is dissatisfying to more people, and so the complaints begin to pour in. The issue gets casually joked about and shit on. "Aha-ha, sim late" "Sim Wen" "Will there ever be a sim?!"
A solution is proposed. In the case of the sim team, it's hiring more simmers.
The complaints stop immediately, at least where the person who proposed the solution can see them. No one wants to acknowledge the hiring thread, except to jokingly suggest people for it like some sort of Hunger Games tribute. No one else has a better solution, but almost everybody wants to say there should be *A* solution out there. Just not with them.
And then the next season rolls around. Various whiners can't afford training. They inevitably blame the people who hold 5 jobs for taking all of the jobs. The simmer hiring thread is still open.
Hey man, I totally agree with you. In this thread, the general idea on what I'm complaining about seems to be the simmer. However, that was never my goal. What I wanted this to be about was HO in general who spent time arguing for no reason and telling us to "go spread the news that sim is delayed" rather than officially communicate it to the site. Is a sim delay kinda annoying? Of course! People want the fake hockey to happen! But a sim at all is better than no sim. And so many things can happen, starting with forgetting (this is charity work, not a job) and including having to fix the file, or also just IRL shit. What really pissed me off was that I was assumed to complain about the simmmers BY HO, was criticized BY HO, and all that time, instead of causing a civil war in the J GM Server, anyone with perms, whether it was the commish, an online member of HO, or a simmer, could've published a message saying "Sim delayed; simmer is fixing file", or simply "sim delayed". I think the league has a big issue on simple communication, and how I've been shittalked for attacking the simmers when that wasn't even my goal nor my intention illustrates it pretty well.
I want to add that I appreciate everything HO does. Without Head Office, there is no league. The number of times I've asked dumb questions and was met with a smile and an answer to the dumb question is actually too high. But without players, there is no league either. It is our responsibility in general to keep them informed, and that's what irked me last night.
Maybe one of the problems is I’m in NY… this would be my responsibility! I happened to login and see y’all shitting on the simmer (yes I get you are encompassing anyone with perms), so figure out if your attitude is worth being a asshole to the very people who even take the god damn time to make sure you have not only a sim, but also a correct file. The entitlement to treat people like shit is off the god damn charts. Get over the ego.
can we circle back to this completely-normal behaviour instead of dog piling on a user showing remorse/a misinterpreted message
12-19-2024, 11:01 AM(This post was last modified: 12-19-2024, 11:04 AM by sköldpaddor. Edited 1 time in total.)
12-19-2024, 10:50 AMToast Wrote: can we circle back to this completely-normal behaviour instead of dog piling on a user showing remorse/a misinterpreted message
Toast, the entire issue last night was because Seany and others initiated some dogpiling themselves, after being told repeatedly by several members of HO to let it lie.
I think this thread has run its course and can be closed, but I don't think it's fair to participate in dogpiling, take the dog piling to the site to further exacerbate the issue, and then complain about being dogpiled.
Edited to add: Wally's post was made long, long before Seany posted any kind of apology or show of remorse. It's not fair to act like he saw Seany's message of apology and THEN decided to say that.
12-19-2024, 11:01 AMsköldpaddor Wrote: Toast, the entire issue last night was because Seany and others initiated some dogpiling themselves, after being told repeatedly by several members of HO to let it lie.
I think this thread has run its course and can be closed, but I don't think it's fair to participate in dogpiling, take the dog piling to the site to further exacerbate the issue, and then complain about being dogpiled.
Can I see the messages Seany sent that attacked the sim team? The frustration lies at those with permissions being unable to inform the league of sim delays, not the fact there was a sim delay. All of this could have been avoided with someone sending out a message through the sim channel to all LRs but instead people start fighting like always. Many users spoke up last night so seeing Seany be the main target of this backlash is frustrating. Yes, the forum post is unnecessary but so is the vile language being thrown at him in DMs. Plus stuff like "put Seany in charge of sim team for a season" helps nothing.
The feedback could've been delivered in a more constructive manner and the response to it could've been better as well.
12-19-2024, 11:09 AMToast Wrote: Can I see the messages Seany sent that attacked the sim team? The frustration lies at those with permissions being unable to inform the league of sim delays, not the fact there was a sim delay. All of this could have been avoided with someone sending out a message through the sim channel to all LRs but instead people start fighting like always. Many users spoke up last night so seeing Seany be the main target of this backlash is frustrating. Yes, the forum post is unnecessary but so is the vile language being thrown at him in DMs. Plus stuff like "put Seany in charge of sim team for a season" helps nothing.
The feedback could've been delivered in a more constructive manner and the response to it could've been better as well.
As I said earlier in the thread, as soon as someone (me) from HO noticed that the sim was late, I investigated and brought back both the simmer in question to check in, as well as an explanation of the issue. After I explained it, several sets of GMs continued to harp on the "do communication" thing even though I, and other members of HO had already agreed that we would like better communication in the future. We were all in agreement about that, and asked that people stop beating the dead horse, but some GMs continued to lecture, continued to prod, despite being asked to stop, and then, after the issue had long died down in actual GM chat, it was dragged onto here (you are correct that it wasn't just Seany, Seany is just the person who decided it was a good idea to pull this onto the site and keep it going).
Sure, we could have done an announcement, but we did not have an ETA, so we told GMs that there was a delay with the expectation that they would tell their locker rooms to hang in there and more info would be coming shortly (I also personally told a few locker rooms and the rookie server where questions were arising as well).
This is behavior I've consistently observed here - people want to be treated better than they are willing to treat others. People want to treat others poorly and then not have to deal with any kind of consequences. You can't start fires and then go all "pikashock" when the fires burn you back. I am not encouraging anyone to attack Seany here, and like I said, I think this thread has run its course, but it is alarming how often we expect people to accept being treated badly and just take it on the chin without pushing back.
12-19-2024, 09:14 AMsköldpaddor Wrote: Hey man, I wanted to respond to this because I think there's a little confusion here. The last time I remember somebody blowing up at the media team, I actually was right there discussing it with them and trying to work through the issue (I think @MikeLiut probably remembers the conversation we had about the great audiobook fiasco). I'm not sure when somebody yelled at the PT team last, but if it's brought to me, I will go to bat for those other teams of volunteers any day of the week.
The truth is, media and pt graders just don't have the same visibility that simmers do. Those jobs don't have half the site looking over their shoulder every second of the time they're doing their jobs, they don't have people posting "WEN MEDIA GRADE?" a half hour after a scheduled time (because as far as I know, most of their work doesn't have a hard deadline that the entire site is aware of). If one media grader or PT grader gets sick and doesn't work one day, the entire site doesn't come knocking on their door demanding to know where they are.
Like I said, if people are targeting people in those positions and I hear about it, I will do what I can to put a stop to it, but that's nowhere near on the same scale as the vitriol the sim team receives on a regular basis, or the incredibly tight deadlines and standards they have for the work they do. It's just not the same thing, and comparing it is kind of apples and oranges.
12-19-2024, 12:00 AMFluw Wrote: You didn't specify what kind of communication. Time to send letters via Canada Post or USPS when sim is delayed. You should receive your communication is 3-5 business days, or never but it will be issued.
I love you Fluw
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