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SMJHL Should Be Careful This Season
#1

So I’ve been discussing this with Ofer lately and it appears a lot of teams will have new active s46 rookies on the 4th line/3rd pairing. I know two expansion teams were added, but is it enough? Because honestly, playing bottom lines just isn’t all that fun.

This is the biggest draft class all time, and I think we should do everything we can to make these rookies’ first season a fun time. Your first season on this site should definitely be one of, if not, the most fun season of your career.

Who remembers the days when you’d compete with other new players to the site for awards in your first SMJHL season? That was so much fun - building rivalries with fellow new people. Now it looks like all of these capped send-downs are just going to battle for the awards.

At the very least I hope GMs give new players as much playing time as possible, seeing as regular season doesn’t mean much this year. A more extreme suggestion would be to add an incentive for these send-downs to play up in the shl this season. Maybe people drafted between certain years like s43-s44 could have their own milestones in the SHL which could be easy(ish) to reach, and which reward either small TPE gains or money bonuses. This should keep them interested, as they probably won’t score as much as they’d like.

I have no problem playing with S45 send-downs. But some of these S44 and even s43/s42 send downs are about to steal a lot of playing time from new members.

I’d also like to propose we up the scoring (Ofer’s idea). Just adds to the fun, really think this is a no brainer.

So yeah, I hope we can all come together as a community and make this one of the best seasons ever to all these new people. Having as many of them remain active as possible should be our ultimate goal as a community.

I know my suggestions aren’t perfect, I’d love to hear any suggestions or opinions you guys have. Cheers SHL Cheers
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#2
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2018, 07:26 AM by Avakael.)

STHS is a jerk. Even if you set the line times to 25/25/25/25, it still takes liberties with them. The only reliable way to ensure everyone gets more scoring is to add even more expansion franchises- which causes problems on the out of context end due to emptier LRs. The usual way of handling this thing is to let people know that SMJHL results won't affect their SHL draft position or their career in the long run. SHL teams are much more interested in how active they are, and what kind of person they are, and to just have fun getting to know people in the meantime- because at the end of the day, that's where 90% of the enjoyment on the site is going to come from long term anyway.

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#3

The SMJHL has lost its way regarding its purpose... keeping the first gens invested and active. No one wants to be a 4th line plug in the J and there’s zero reason for a prospect to “prefer” staying down if being called up is an option. I look at it as if my player were a young kid in the OHL. If the GM of the team in the NHL that owned my rights called me and asked if I’d be interested in the NHL, hell yeah! I’ll be a healthy scratch or a fourth line player there over a top line everything in juniors.

Maybe there needs to be some change in the SMJHL contracts and individual purchases that significantly incentivizes making the jump to the SHL ASAP but doesn’t put the SMJHL players at a disadvantage in the long run...

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#4
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2018, 08:47 AM by O4L.)

12-28-2018, 08:01 AMAce Wrote: The SMJHL has lost its way regarding its purpose... keeping the first gens invested and active. No one wants to be a 4th line plug in the J and there’s zero reason for a prospect to “prefer” staying down if being called up is an option. I look at it as if my player were a young kid in the OHL. If the GM of the team in the NHL that owned my rights called me and asked if I’d be interested in the NHL, hell yeah! I’ll be a healthy scratch or a fourth line player there over a top line everything in juniors.

Maybe there needs to be some change in the SMJHL contracts and individual purchases that significantly incentivizes making the jump to the SHL ASAP but doesn’t put the SMJHL players at a disadvantage in the long run...

Good points.

I remember the SMJHL used to be completely about getting your first year rookies ready for the SHL. I hated the old send-down system with a passion but the one thing it did was prevent was the SMJHL teams becoming a country club for send-downs to stay down and pad their stats which are ultimately meaningless in the long run (and hurt their careers more than help in a lot of cases), I'm not blaming the send-downs here because inflation (in terms of TPE and members) has caused this problem as much as anything but it would still be nice to see it changed. This was also an era where rookies could easily score over PPG if they stayed active and some players scored 60 + points in a 40 game season, IIRC Dions player scored close to 80 in a 40 game season. This also led to more separation between the good and bad teams and you'd get some godawful teams but now that everyone makes the play-offs that doesn't matter as much.

First season is also IMO the most important for keeping new members active. I know I likely would've gone inactive on my first player had I not been scoring in my first year or had been scoring less than .50 PPG (as dumb as this sounds it's true). What kept me active in my first season was seeing my player scoring and having a chance at being the best player in the sim in my first year. We've told players that stats don't matter when it comes to your draft position and although its true we're probably losing a lot of potential actives because they log in and see their player struggle to hit 20 points at years end while they grind it out playing 10-15 minutes a game.

At the very least I'd like to see some line requirements put in place. If you have 3 send-downs and 3 rookies on D you should have to pair the 3 rookies with the 3 send-downs instead of just stacking the top 4. You can let anything go in the play-offs but for regular season at least there should be more done to help first gens score.

Like Argar went 7th overall because he told GM's he wasn't staying down for over 2 seasons, this is just crazy. GM's shouldn't be expecting guys to spend 4 seasons in juniors to even consider drafting them. Winning is supposed to be back-seat to first gen development.

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#5

12-28-2018, 08:23 AMO4L Wrote: Like Argar went 7th overall because he told GM's he wasn't staying down for over 2 seasons, this is just crazy. GM's shouldn't be expecting guys to spend in juniors for 4 seasons to even consider drafting them. Winning is supposed to be back-seat to first gen development.

This still blows my mind. I wrote about this in a comment on Big Slappy Hour but it'll have more eyes on it here, so I'll repeat it. With SHL expansion on the horizon (cant remember if it was officially announced yet, but it was a terribly kept secret), a first-round caliber pick (especially in the top 4-5) should almost be expected to be gone after one send-down season max because either they're getting drafted to a rebuilder, or they're getting drafted to an expansion team. Argar falling in the draft for saying what any of us in the first round (save maybe Karl, since he's a GM and is operating on a different plane and schedule from the average player) were already thinking and simply didn't say was, well, it was something.

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#6

It's what happens to any league where there's competition. Teams want to win of course. That means SHL teams plays the best possible rooster even if it means sending down thier rookie 3 seasons straight (me in this case).

I personally could care less about padding my stats. I'm not really interested in setting records or being a hof player. I just want my team to win to be honest.

I played my entire first season on the fourth line and Tallied up 10 points
I could have let that get to me, but I didn't, I went 8th over all in the SHL draft and landed on a team I'm very happy to play for. I am also one of the top TPE earners on the site looking at TPE/week.

First season will be rough, there's send downs who takes up roster spots, the teams are no longer filled with 155 inactives.

Sadly there's no easy way to tackle the issue as most suggestions either punish the player or the SHL team. I don't agree with either to be honest.

The way I look at it is that if you can't stay active first season of your players carer due to ice time, good luck spending 4 seasons on the 4th/3rd line in SHL playing against absolute monsters. Players who are active will definetly crack top6/4 during thier second sesson.



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#7
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2018, 08:58 AM by ArGarBarGar.)

12-28-2018, 08:44 AMztevans Wrote:
12-28-2018, 08:23 AMO4L Wrote: Like Argar went 7th overall because he told GM's he wasn't staying down for over 2 seasons, this is just crazy. GM's shouldn't be expecting guys to spend in juniors for 4 seasons to even consider drafting them. Winning is supposed to be back-seat to first gen development.

This still blows my mind. I wrote about this in a comment on Big Slappy Hour but it'll have more eyes on it here, so I'll repeat it. With SHL expansion on the horizon (cant remember if it was officially announced yet, but it was a terribly kept secret), a first-round caliber pick (especially in the top 4-5) should almost be expected to be gone after one send-down season max because either they're getting drafted to a rebuilder, or they're getting drafted to an expansion team. Argar falling in the draft for saying what any of us in the first round (save maybe Karl, since he's a GM and is operating on a different plane and schedule from the average player) were already thinking and simply didn't say was, well, it was something.

This is also something I have brought up a couple times in podcasts. The Jesster is being awarded to players who are 2+ or 3+ rookies regularly, now and for some reason the standard for junior players is at least three seasons (making a 3+ junior). That is insanity and like others have said this is problematic for keeping new members because they won't be getting the type of ice time players back in the S20s got in the SMJHL their rookie seasons.

The Four Star Cup should really be secondary to cultivating solid members for the future. I have believed this since I have been part of the league. Wanting to hoard junior players for three seasons goes against that.

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#8

12-28-2018, 08:57 AMArGarBarGar Wrote:
12-28-2018, 08:44 AMztevans Wrote: This still blows my mind. I wrote about this in a comment on Big Slappy Hour but it'll have more eyes on it here, so I'll repeat it. With SHL expansion on the horizon (cant remember if it was officially announced yet, but it was a terribly kept secret), a first-round caliber pick (especially in the top 4-5) should almost be expected to be gone after one send-down season max because either they're getting drafted to a rebuilder, or they're getting drafted to an expansion team. Argar falling in the draft for saying what any of us in the first round (save maybe Karl, since he's a GM and is operating on a different plane and schedule from the average player) were already thinking and simply didn't say was, well, it was something.

This is also something I have brought up a couple times in podcasts. The Jesster is being awarded to players who are 2+ or 3+ rookies regularly, now and for some reason the standard for junior players is at least three seasons (making a 3+ junior). That is insanity and like others have said this is problematic for keeping new members because they won't be getting the type of ice time players back in the S20s got in the SMJHL their rookie seasons.

The Four Star Cup should really be secondary to cultivating solid members for the future. I have believed this since I have been part of the league. Wanting to hoard junior players for three seasons goes against that.

Hopefully with two new expansion teams the need for lower TPE players will become greater. As it is now there's many inactives that just fills the need of third liners better.



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#9
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2018, 09:33 AM by gordieboom.)

I’m not speaking for all rookies, but i’d like to give my input as someone completely new to the site and simulation hockey in general.

I don’t mind playing in a bottom 6 line in my first season(s). A season takes about 6 weeks, with all the stuff going on, there is no time to getting bored and before you know it your player is starting to climb the ladder. To be honest i find it more realistic to start in a bottom line role and make a steady progression.

I do think the SMJHL expansion was a wise decision though. You don’t want players not being drafted in their first season. And with the SMJHL expansion an SHL expansion makes sense aswell.

What i think is more important is the organization in general. Keep things running smoothly, update as fast as possible (just spent 3 hours on a spreadsheet just to discover at the end that the rosters were outdated and i could throw it all away). That would keep me more active than playing time.



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#10

12-28-2018, 09:31 AMgordieboom Wrote: I’m not speaking for all rookies, but i’d like to give my input as someone completely new to the site and simulation hockey in general.

I don’t mind playing in a bottom 6 line in my first season(s). A season takes about 6 weeks, with all the stuff going on, there is no time to getting bored and before you know it your player is starting to climb the ladder. To be honest i find it more realistic to start in a bottom line role and make a steady progression.

I do think the SMJHL expansion was a wise decision though. You don’t want players not being drafted in their first season. And with the SMJHL expansion an SHL expansion makes sense aswell.

What i think is more important is the organization in general. Keep things running smoothly, update as fast as possible (just spent 3 hours on a spreadsheet just to discover at the end that the rosters were outdated and i could throw it all away). That would keep me more active than playing time.

The game is a SIM after all. A SIM is not just about winning all possible awards and be HOF, it's about getting as close to the reality as possible. If that means playing bottom six for your first season than it's more than reasonable. Though when getting called up to the SHL I think teams should favor active players over inactive players (even if they have more TPE). Besides realism, you also want to have fun. How much fun can you have with inactive people in your Discord?

The onboarding on this website is already quite difficult. There's a lot of information to take in and a lot of steps to go through before you are actually up and running. If you look at recent game designs the onboarding is simplified with spoonfeeding tutorials etc. I like that this is different, activity and curiosity get's rewarded. Not everything should be easy. If you make bad choices for your player, you should see it reflected in it's performance. That's how sims work. Is that bad? No, you retire and start over.

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#11

12-28-2018, 10:12 AMKatth Wrote:
12-28-2018, 09:31 AMgordieboom Wrote: I’m not speaking for all rookies, but i’d like to give my input as someone completely new to the site and simulation hockey in general.

I don’t mind playing in a bottom 6 line in my first season(s). A season takes about 6 weeks, with all the stuff going on, there is no time to getting bored and before you know it your player is starting to climb the ladder. To be honest i find it more realistic to start in a bottom line role and make a steady progression.

I do think the SMJHL expansion was a wise decision though. You don’t want players not being drafted in their first season. And with the SMJHL expansion an SHL expansion makes sense aswell.

What i think is more important is the organization in general. Keep things running smoothly, update as fast as possible (just spent 3 hours on a spreadsheet just to discover at the end that the rosters were outdated and i could throw it all away). That would keep me more active than playing time.

The game is a SIM after all. A SIM is not just about winning all possible awards and be HOF, it's about getting as close to the reality as possible. If that means playing bottom six for your first season than it's more than reasonable. Though when getting called up to the SHL I think teams should favor active players over inactive players (even if they have more TPE). Besides realism, you also want to have fun. How much fun can you have with inactive people in your Discord?

The onboarding on this website is already quite difficult. There's a lot of information to take in and a lot of steps to go through before you are actually up and running. If you look at recent game designs the onboarding is simplified with spoonfeeding tutorials etc. I like that this is different, activity and curiosity get's rewarded. Not everything should be easy. If you make bad choices for your player, you should see it reflected in it's performance. That's how sims work. Is that bad? No, you retire and start over.

It's really refreshing to see rookies with this mentality, first season really flashes by and is mostly a tutorial, if you stay active you'll find yourself earning top minutes for sure.

Punishing SHL teams for having a good player go inactive is pretty harsh, since it's out of thier control. Just imagine your team building towards that cup run,only to. Have your 1C go inactive due to IRL getting in the way. It's a dangerous path.

Also, it's not the end of it all if you screw up. You are allowed to reallocate 50 TPE per season for a fee of 100k per TPE. You can also pay for a position/archetype change once per career.



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#12

12-28-2018, 08:01 AMAce Wrote: The SMJHL has lost its way regarding its purpose... keeping the first gens invested and active. No one wants to be a 4th line plug in the J and there’s zero reason for a prospect to “prefer” staying down if being called up is an option. I look at it as if my player were a young kid in the OHL. If the GM of the team in the NHL that owned my rights called me and asked if I’d be interested in the NHL, hell yeah! I’ll be a healthy scratch or a fourth line player there over a top line everything in juniors.

Maybe there needs to be some change in the SMJHL contracts and individual purchases that significantly incentivizes making the jump to the SHL ASAP but doesn’t put the SMJHL players at a disadvantage in the long run...

I'm actually the opposite but I think that's because a goalie either plays or doesn't it's very binary. I'll take playing on a Jr team over backing up and getting 6 starts on the SHL team 100% of the time.

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#13

12-28-2018, 10:24 AMDaco Wrote:
12-28-2018, 08:01 AMAce Wrote: The SMJHL has lost its way regarding its purpose... keeping the first gens invested and active. No one wants to be a 4th line plug in the J and there’s zero reason for a prospect to “prefer” staying down if being called up is an option. I look at it as if my player were a young kid in the OHL. If the GM of the team in the NHL that owned my rights called me and asked if I’d be interested in the NHL, hell yeah! I’ll be a healthy scratch or a fourth line player there over a top line everything in juniors.

Maybe there needs to be some change in the SMJHL contracts and individual purchases that significantly incentivizes making the jump to the SHL ASAP but doesn’t put the SMJHL players at a disadvantage in the long run...

I'm actually the opposite but I think that's because a goalie either plays or doesn't it's very binary.  I'll take playing on a Jr team over backing up and getting 6 starts on the SHL team 100% of the time.

That's a different case entirely, and there would be different parameters for goaltending.

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#14

Anyways FWIW i agree with Arga and you guys are in the position to influence this league you should nag the head office and whoever makes the decisions. Create your proposal with the benefits over the existing system and make it easy for them to say yes. The issue is in the details, if someone creates a plan for how to implement a fix its hard to say no

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#15
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2018, 11:25 AM by RomanesEuntDomus.)

I see the problems that you guys are identifying but I have to say that I disagree with the conclusions you are drawing from it. Yes, this season and the next few will be very challenging due to the influx of new recruits and since we don't know if expansion, while absolutely necessary right now, will be sustainable long-term. I don't think however that forcing people into the SHL before they feel ready is the solution, nor do I think that people staying down in juniors for a few extra season is as big a problem as you make it out to be.

In fact, I would argue that the situation has somewhat improved in that regard compared to previous years, it feels like there were more people with 3+ send-down seasons a few years ago, nowadays pretty much everyone who isn't a goalie or semi-active goes up after 2. We will never get back to the olden days where people regularly came in and got to dominate as true rookies, not with all the TPE-inflation and the different update scales that have happened since. It was a fun time, but it's gone, let's just accept that.

People going inactive shortly after joining is unfortunate but it has always been a part of a league like this one, there are a million reasons why people might sign up but not stick around and we will always see a significant amount of our draft classes go inactive before they even finished their first season. As a comparison, just think about your own gaming habits on say Steam or other platforms. How many games are there that you got in some sale or bundle but barely even touched. Some you didn't like, some you simply forgot about and others are on your "I will get to it eventually" pile. It's just the same with the SHL, which is basically just another video game.

People might go inactive because they find the site too complicated, they might go inactive because they thought it was something different than it is, they might simply forget about it after the holidays, they might not like the atmosphere, they might have been signed up by a friend while not actually being very interested in the first place, and so on, and so on... There are lots of reasons people quit early on and not getting enough ice-time in your first season is a pretty minor one compared to these in my opinion.

In fact, I would argue that our biggest problem with retention doesn't lie within the first season of people joining, but a bit later. I'm talking about a few seasons in, when the novelty has worn off and when the grind is setting in, when progression has gotten very slow and your team might be stuck in a rebuild. That's when we tend to lose a lot of people who started out as good active members, and now you want to force these people onto an SHL 4th line? That would make things even worse imho. Let people play where they most enjoy it, for some thats another send-down year in the SMJHL, for others it's in a smaller role in the SHL. As long as there aren't too many junior spots being blocked I don't seen an issue with it especially with the SMJHL cap being so low (which is a good thing and shouldn't be changed, even though some have suggested that).

Maybe allowing only 2 send-down seasons for skaters and 3 for goalies would work as a change, but everything stricter than that is a bad idea imho. Especially if you take a look at the mid- to long-term, yes right now rookies might struggle a bit to get significant playing time, but once the current reddit class has moved on from the now expanded SMJHL, there will be an awful lot of slots to fill and I think that teams would struggle to do so in non-reddit years or even in weaker reddit-years if you force everyone out of juniors too quickly.
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