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Boomcheck · 04-18-2019, 03:24 AM

I will be using the same resources as what I assume most of the voting committee used to to lay out some facts and where certain d-men may rank in regards to the brand new Defensive Defenseman award. I have literally come up with this thought on the spot and as I type this? I have no idea what conclusion I will come to as I start by finally opening up this new data provided aaronwilson and baelor. Alongside the S46 Index.

[Image: scott-stevens-1986-49.jpg]

Bojo Biscuit Trophy - Best Defensive Defenceman
Toivo Kosonen Panthers

Ludwig Koch Schroder Platoon

Poopity Scoop Chiefs

These were the three nominees for the award and Scoop came up the winner. I will likely throw a bunch of other defensemen into the mix depending on a few attributes and criteria I choose myself. So no offensive production. Did Scoop deserve to win? Were these the three best possible nominations? I have no idea so lets dive in. We will default to our old metrics first in hits/shots blocked.

Hits

Ti-Guy Emond - 188
Otis B. Driftwood - 174
Poopity Scoop - 162
Gary Grease - 159
Tigole Bitties - 154
Maui - 146
Jean-Pierre Gay - 140
Tatu Makela - 139
Richard Physt - 139
Alexis Metzler - 136
Maurice Picard - 136
Reginald MacIntyre - 133
Casey Creller - 131
Tor Tuck - 129
Jon Toner - 120
Svatoslav Bodnar - 117
Finn Kruger - 117
The Dude - 115
John Grossman Jr. - 113
Ludwig Koch Schroder - 112
Sven Brokstad - 111
Clint Eastwood - 111
Liam O'Callaghan - 110
Bob Bergen - 108
Troy McClure III - 108
Charlie Schieck - 101
Toivo Kosonen - 27

I just listed every nominee's hits and all those defensemen with over 100 hits. This, traditionally is what you would expect to be a big factor in an award such as the defensive defensemen. You would assume they value physicality as a method of getting players off the puck, but it seems not. Scoop is on the higher end, but LKS and Kosonen are on the lower end. Also I am listing and ordering a bunch, should probably only high light the nominees and the top 10. This is kind of shocking though.

Shots Blocked

Sami Owens - 98
Charles Walker - 93
Max Weber - 89
Fredrich Koenig - 89
Isak Odegard - 86
Ostap Maksimov - 84
Reginald MacIntyre - 83
Otis B. Driftwood - 82
Charlie Schieck - 82
Tokek Takshak - 82
GOD McZehrl - 82
Poopity Scoop - 80
Ludwig Koch Schroder - 80
Toivo Kosonen - 79
Karsten Kadinger - 78
Maui - 78
Brady McIntyre - 76
Spitfire - 75
Ti-Guy Emond - 75
Bob Bergen - 74
Nour Harrak - 74
Jon Toner - 68
Karl Hefeweizen - 68
Harvey Danger - 66

So I listed every team's best shot blocker, the 3 nominees and the next best shot blocker on the nominees teams. None of the nominees crack the top 10 in shots blocked, clustered in the middle of this group. 11 above them, 10 below. Not too much cross over from the hits and shots blocked list here though you see a few names.

Shots Blocked %
(Shots Blocked / Team's Total Shots Against) x 100

Charles Walker - (6.378%)
Isak Odegard - (5.842%)
Sami Owens - (5.778%)
Charlie Schieck - (5.571%)
GOD McZehrl - (5.624%)
Toivo Kosonen - (5.471%)
Max Weber - (5.410%)
Ludwig Koch Schroder - (5.316%)
Fredrich Koenig - (5.304%)
Reginald MacIntyre - (5.223%)
Karsten Kadinger - (5.183%)
Tokek Takshak - (5.160%)
Ostap Maksimov - (5.069%)
Brady McIntyre - (5.007%)
Poopity Scoop - (4.957%)
Otis B. Driftwood - (4.949%)
Bob Bergen - (4.917%)
Jon Toner - (4.709%)
Nour Harrak - (4.657%)
Spitfire - (4.647%) ***
Ti-Guy Emond - (4.647%) ***
Karl Hefeweizen - (4.601%)
Maui - (4.343%)
Harvey Danger - (4.082%)

Not all too accurate since it does depend on who is on the ice and at what time the shots are coming at, which the new advanced stats should solve. I haven't looked at them yet and went with this route arbitrarily. Spitfire and Emond have the *** because they were traded and their counts are not accurate since I used Minnesota's total count. This is a crude method to cut out the 'bad teams=more shots blocked' thing. LKS and Kosonen show well here. Charles Walker steals the show.

Defensive Point Shares - Top 10 via Baelor's Article

D Toivo Kosonen - 4.50
D Richard Physt - 4.45
D Jon Toner - 4.34
D Adam Kaiser - 4.02
D Geoff Moore - 4.01
D Tatu Makela - 3.92
D GOD McZehrl - 3.82
D Poopity Scoop - 3.65
D Bob Bergen - 3.58
D Ludwig Koch Schroder - 3.34
Casey Creller - 3.29
Rex Kirby - 3.12
Sami Owens - 3.11
Jack Tanner - 3.09
Von Matt - 3.09

Some fancy advanced stats, favor all 3 nominees pretty well. McZherl/Tatu/Toner are names I see often. See more of it HERE

Steals

Fredrich Koenig - 1034
Ludwig Koch Schroder -1015
Otis B. Driftwood -998
Ben Dover - 993
Ti-Guy Emond -992
Maui - 982
Poopity Scoop - 973
Tigole Bitties - 957
Toivo Kosonen - 952
Barrett McCarthy - 947
Sami Owens - 939
Karsten Kadinger -935
Ostap Maksimov -915
Tatu Makela -912
Jack Tanner -910
Nour Harrak - 904
Reginald MacIntyre - 897
Geoff Moore - 887
Jon Toner - 885
Troy McClure III - 885
Max Weber - 884
Tor Tuck - 884
The Dude - 877
Finn Kruger - 875
Gary Grease -873
Daniel Karlsson -869
Shoyu Kikkoman - 867
Zhander Rhys - 866
Charles Walker - 860
Chuck Goody Jr. - 859
GOD McZherl - 858
Spitfire - 857
Bob Bergen - 852
Casey Creller - 851
Buck Maverick - 850

Just raw steals numbers, all of our nominees in the top 10 so I assume this had a lot of weight behind it. Are these three the best defensive defensemen? I don't know. I still can't tell. There's a mix of a bunch of names that consistently show up. Feels like maybe the Driftwood/Emond types should get more love here too. Check the advanced stats via aaronwilson HERE

Who do you believe to be the best defensive defenseman?

Tomasnz · 04-18-2019, 04:50 AM

You need to look at give aways too.. and also then the difference between the two

Otherwise makes some solid points.

But...

Quote:McZherl/Tatu/Toner are names I see often.

I disagree, not on their merit. But on your reading of your own data. They don't appear more often than many others including the nominees .
There is one person reviewing your summary that I feel might feel sore done by which is Otis B. Driftwood.

For me the interesting complexity of this award was how to rate all the different parts together as a wholistic assessment.

Boomcheck · 04-18-2019, 03:11 PM

04-18-2019, 04:50 AMTomasnz Wrote: You need to look at give aways too.. and also then the difference between the two

Otherwise makes some solid points.

But...

Quote:McZherl/Tatu/Toner are names I see often.

I disagree, not on their merit. But on your reading of your own data. They don't appear more often than many others including the nominees .
There is one person reviewing your summary that I feel might feel sore done by which is Otis B. Driftwood.

For me the interesting complexity of this award was how to rate all the different parts together as a wholistic assessment.

They do appear multiple times. but overall lets say I take a look at the overall ratio.

LKS: 1.16
Scoop: 1.28
Kosonen: 1.22
Fredrich Koenig: 1.15
Driftwood: 1.12
Ti-Guy Emond: 1.20
Barrett McCarthy: 1.38
Karsten Kadinger: 1.35
Geoff Moore: 1.33
Maurice Picard: 1.24

Iunno, I see players on the list with better ratios on their own team and all of them play 20 mins+

Chiefs have one of the worst PKs in the league, they improved after the team's trade deadline moves on defense. LAP 2nd, WKP middling at like 10th. The best defensive defenseman is apart of the worst PK in the league.

Daco · 04-18-2019, 03:21 PM

You'd have to rank the players by where they rank in each of the attributes you posted for this post to have any purpose or point whatsoever. As it stands you pretty much made the case that nominees were selected well since they're top 10 in everything. I'd be more curious to see you average every players placement which is pretty simple to do in a spreadsheet use a weighted average. Scoop probably gets like a 5 overall across the board idk. So the question becomes is anyone better but also some attributes are more important than others . Hits don't have any value, shots blocked have minor value, then win shares and steals and takeaways vs giveaway ratio are obviously the big ones.

Also I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how nominations work, obviously you see the field is quite divided right no clear winner. Well in order to be nominated you had to be nominated by 60% of the committee who voted privately not knowing who others were voting for. None of my nominees even made the list for example. So it's just an award that will have 10 different arguments for different players and definitely the toughest with no concensus winner

Chris-McZehrl · 04-18-2019, 03:30 PM

I really thought Otis B. Driftwood will win it!

awils13 · 04-18-2019, 03:34 PM

What about +/-? I don't like this stat in real life but it seems less random in the sim, and it would be weird if the best defensive defenseman had a negative +/-.
This would eliminate players on bad teams, though.
I haven't actually looked at +/- of the nominees, just noticed that you didn't mention it.

Boomcheck · 04-18-2019, 03:36 PM

Is the award voting some ranking system 1-5 where each place gets x amount of points?

I'm more so interested in what voters actually look at in high regard. What are the defense only stats we have available?

BDonini · 04-18-2019, 03:36 PM

Nice to see different perspectives on a new award. Personally for me, defensive point shares played a bigger role in my nomination process as I mentioned in my article. Of course all the other traditional stats were taken into account as well. Something that really stands out to me is how low Driftwood's defensive point shares were despite how well he did in the traditional stats (ranked 56th league wide in DPS) which is why I think he fell really under the radar (didn't even receive one nomination).

Daco · 04-18-2019, 03:38 PM

04-18-2019, 03:34 PMaaronwilson Wrote: What about +/-? I don't like this stat in real life but it seems less random in the sim, and it would be weird if the best defensive defenseman had a negative +/-.
This would eliminate players on bad teams, though.
I haven't actually looked at +/- of the nominees, just noticed that you didn't mention it.

Yea I looked at this as well as a factor. Everyone had their own strong different opinions basically on what matters

**.bojo** · 04-18-2019, 03:42 PM

This pleases me

Boomcheck · 04-18-2019, 03:51 PM

+/- is something i'd look at too. Relative to the team ofcourse.

Minnesota: +19
LAP +5
WKP +11

Calgary -14

Scoop +23 (5th in his team, 5 back of Nova/Watson) Highest +/- on other defenseman on team: Moore +27
Kosonen +22 (Leads team, 1 ahead of Toner) Highest +/- on other defenseman on team: Toner +21
LKS: +5 (5th on team, 8 back of Forsberg) Highest +/- on other defenseman on team: Kirby +6

Driftwood: -13 (15th on team, Like 19-20 back of Creller) Highest +/- on other defenseman on team: Creller +7

But these are just goals against and whatnot. I assume the analytics they look at tell more of a story on shots against?

Obsidian311 · 04-18-2019, 04:06 PM

Yeah Scoop was a terrible winner and made me lose hope that it would actually be an award for a good defensive player. Instead it's just another Stevens award. How does the best defensive defenseman play on the team with the 4th most GA and one of the worst PK. They don't, that's how. Awards are a sham in this league and will continue to be until there are defined criteria and a better voting system. Which sadly even if they wanted to, isn't possible with how our league is set up.

Baelor Swift · 04-18-2019, 05:04 PM

Ok, so let's look at something here. I am considering all defensemen who played any reasonable amount of time.... Who had more than 50 shot attempts for. There are 96 such players.

First, I think possession is very important... so let's filter out all players with a CF% below 50%... So now we have a pool of 57 players.

I also think steals (takeaways) are very important... so let's filter out the bottom half in terms of takeaways. Now we have 28 players.

Now let's look at TA/GA ratio. Interestingly, of these 28 players, only one has a ratio below 1. Let's set a cutoff at 1.2...

This leaves us with 10 defensemen who have a CF% of 50%+, 829+ steals, and a 1.2 or greater TA/GA ratio. They are:

Geoff Moore
Karsten Kadinger
Tokek Takshak
Poopity Scoop
GOD McZehrl
Sami Owens
Chuck Goody Jr
Charles Walker
Casey Creller
Toivo Kosonen

Now let's rank them by each of the criteria set. Starting with CF%

1. Karsten Kadinger
2. Poopity Scoop
3. Charles Walker
4. Geoff Moore
5. Chuck Goody Jr
6. Casey Creller
7. GOD McZehrl
8. Toivo Kosonen
9. Sami Owens
10. Tokek Takshak

Now, let's rank them by steals

1. Poopity Scoop
2. Toivo Kosonen
3. Sami Owens
4. Karsten Kadinger
5. Geoff Moore
6. Charles Walker
7. Chuck Goody Jr
8. GOD McZehrl
9. Casey Creller
10. Tokek Takshak

And now let's rank them by TA/GA ratio

1. Geoff Moore
2. Karsten Kadinger
3. Tokek Takshak
4. Poopity Scoop
5. GOD McZehrl
6. Sami Owens
7. Chuck Goody Jr
8. Charles Walker
9. Casey Creller
10. Toivo Kosonen

Additionally, let's rank these 10 by Defensive Point Shares

1. Toivo Kosonen 4.50
2. Geoff Moore 4.01
3. GOD McZehrl 3.82
4. Poopity Scoop 3.65
5. Casey Creller 3.30
6. Sami Owens 3.11
7. Chuck Goody Jr 3.07
8. Charles Walker 2.90
9. Karsten Kadinger 2.69
10. Tokek Takshak 2.13

Now, let's rank them by hits:

1. Poopity Scoop 162
2. Casey Creller 131
3. Toivo Kosonen 27
3. GOD McZehrl 27
5. Tokek Takshak 22
6. Geoff Moore 16
7. Chuck Goody Jr 15
8. Karsten Kadinger 12
9. Sami Owens 10
10. Charles Walker 5

And, finally, shot blocks

1. Sami Owens 98
2. Charles Walker 93
3. GOD McZehrl 82
3. Tokek Takshak 82
5. Poopity Scoop 80
6. Toivo Kosonen 79
7. Karsten Kadinger 78
8. Geoff Moore 73
9. Chuck Goody Jr 66
10. Casey Creller 58

So now... let's put these rankings together and average them

Poopity Scoop 2, 1, 4, 4, 1, 5 = 2.8
Geoff Moore 4, 5, 1, 2, 6, 8 = 4.3
GOD McZehrl 7, 8, 5, 3, 3, 3 = 4.8
Toivo Kosonen 8, 2, 10, 1, 3, 6 = 5.0
Karsten Kadinger 1, 4, 2, 9, 8, 7 = 5.2
Sami Owens 9, 3, 6, 6, 9, 1 = 5.7
Charles Walker 3, 6, 8, 8, 10, 2 = 6.2
Tokek Takshak 10, 10, 3, 10, 5, 3 = 6.8
Casey Creller 6, 9, 9, 5, 2, 10 = 6.8
Chuck Goody Jr 5, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9 = 7.0

So yes, I think it's really hard to say Scoop is bad considering the fact that this factors in virtually every defensive metric we have available to us. Hopefully this clears up the insinuations of bias.

Keygan · 04-18-2019, 05:16 PM

04-18-2019, 05:04 PMBaelor Swift Wrote: Ok, so let's look at something here. I am considering all defensemen who played any reasonable amount of time.... Who had more than 50 shot attempts for. There are 96 such players.

First, I think possession is very important... so let's filter out all players with a CF% below 50%... So now we have a pool of 57 players.

I also think steals (takeaways) are very important... so let's filter out the bottom half in terms of takeaways. Now we have 28 players.

Now let's look at TA/GA ratio. Interestingly, of these 28 players, only one has a ratio below 1. Let's set a cutoff at 1.2...

This leaves us with 10 defensemen who have a CF% of 50%+, 829+ steals, and a 1.2 or greater TA/GA ratio. They are:

Geoff Moore
Karsten Kadinger
Tokek Takshak
Poopity Scoop
GOD McZehrl
Sami Owens
Chuck Goody Jr
Charles Walker
Casey Creller
Toivo Kosonen

Now let's rank them by each of the criteria set. Starting with CF%

1. Karsten Kadinger
2. Poopity Scoop
3. Charles Walker
4. Geoff Moore
5. Chuck Goody Jr
6. Casey Creller
7. GOD McZehrl
8. Toivo Kosonen
9. Sami Owens
10. Tokek Takshak

Now, let's rank them by steals

1. Poopity Scoop
2. Toivo Kosonen
3. Sami Owens
4. Karsten Kadinger
5. Geoff Moore
6. Charles Walker
7. Chuck Goody Jr
8. GOD McZehrl
9. Casey Creller
10. Tokek Takshak

And now let's rank them by TA/GA ratio

1. Geoff Moore
2. Karsten Kadinger
3. Tokek Takshak
4. Poopity Scoop
5. GOD McZehrl
6. Sami Owens
7. Chuck Goody Jr
8. Charles Walker
9. Casey Creller
10. Toivo Kosonen

Additionally, let's rank these 10 by Defensive Point Shares

1. Toivo Kosonen 4.50
2. Geoff Moore 4.01
3. GOD McZehrl 3.82
4. Poopity Scoop 3.65
5. Casey Creller 3.30
6. Sami Owens 3.11
7. Chuck Goody Jr 3.07
8. Charles Walker 2.90
9. Karsten Kadinger 2.69
10. Tokek Takshak 2.13

Now, let's rank them by hits:

1. Poopity Scoop 162
2. Casey Creller 131
3. Toivo Kosonen 27
3. GOD McZehrl 27
5. Tokek Takshak 22
6. Geoff Moore 16
7. Chuck Goody Jr 15
8. Karsten Kadinger 12
9. Sami Owens 10
10. Charles Walker 5

And, finally, shot blocks

1. Sami Owens 98
2. Charles Walker 93
3. GOD McZehrl 82
3. Tokek Takshak 82
5. Poopity Scoop 80
6. Toivo Kosonen 79
7. Karsten Kadinger 78
8. Geoff Moore 73
9. Chuck Goody Jr 66
10. Casey Creller 58

So now... let's put these rankings together and average them

Poopity Scoop 2, 1, 4, 4, 1, 5 = 2.8
Geoff Moore 4, 5, 1, 2, 6, 8 = 4.3
GOD McZehrl 7, 8, 5, 3, 3, 3 = 4.8
Toivo Kosonen 8, 2, 10, 1, 3, 6 = 5.0
Karsten Kadinger 1, 4, 2, 9, 8, 7 = 5.2
Sami Owens 9, 3, 6, 6, 9, 1 = 5.7
Charles Walker 3, 6, 8, 8, 10, 2 = 6.2
Tokek Takshak 10, 10, 3, 10, 5, 3 = 6.8
Casey Creller 6, 9, 9, 5, 2, 10 = 6.8
Chuck Goody Jr 5, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9 = 7.0

So yes, I think it's really hard to say Scoop is bad considering the fact that this factors in virtually every defensive metric we have available to us. Hopefully this clears up the insinuations of bias.

Where’s Koch Schroder though.

Baelor Swift · 04-18-2019, 05:18 PM

04-18-2019, 05:16 PMKeygan Wrote:
04-18-2019, 05:04 PMBaelor Swift Wrote: Ok, so let's look at something here. I am considering all defensemen who played any reasonable amount of time.... Who had more than 50 shot attempts for. There are 96 such players.

First, I think possession is very important... so let's filter out all players with a CF% below 50%... So now we have a pool of 57 players.

I also think steals (takeaways) are very important... so let's filter out the bottom half in terms of takeaways. Now we have 28 players.

Now let's look at TA/GA ratio. Interestingly, of these 28 players, only one has a ratio below 1. Let's set a cutoff at 1.2...

This leaves us with 10 defensemen who have a CF% of 50%+, 829+ steals, and a 1.2 or greater TA/GA ratio. They are:

Geoff Moore
Karsten Kadinger
Tokek Takshak
Poopity Scoop
GOD McZehrl
Sami Owens
Chuck Goody Jr
Charles Walker
Casey Creller
Toivo Kosonen

Now let's rank them by each of the criteria set. Starting with CF%

1. Karsten Kadinger
2. Poopity Scoop
3. Charles Walker
4. Geoff Moore
5. Chuck Goody Jr
6. Casey Creller
7. GOD McZehrl
8. Toivo Kosonen
9. Sami Owens
10. Tokek Takshak

Now, let's rank them by steals

1. Poopity Scoop
2. Toivo Kosonen
3. Sami Owens
4. Karsten Kadinger
5. Geoff Moore
6. Charles Walker
7. Chuck Goody Jr
8. GOD McZehrl
9. Casey Creller
10. Tokek Takshak

And now let's rank them by TA/GA ratio

1. Geoff Moore
2. Karsten Kadinger
3. Tokek Takshak
4. Poopity Scoop
5. GOD McZehrl
6. Sami Owens
7. Chuck Goody Jr
8. Charles Walker
9. Casey Creller
10. Toivo Kosonen

Additionally, let's rank these 10 by Defensive Point Shares

1. Toivo Kosonen 4.50
2. Geoff Moore 4.01
3. GOD McZehrl 3.82
4. Poopity Scoop 3.65
5. Casey Creller 3.30
6. Sami Owens 3.11
7. Chuck Goody Jr 3.07
8. Charles Walker 2.90
9. Karsten Kadinger 2.69
10. Tokek Takshak 2.13

Now, let's rank them by hits:

1. Poopity Scoop 162
2. Casey Creller 131
3. Toivo Kosonen 27
3. GOD McZehrl 27
5. Tokek Takshak 22
6. Geoff Moore 16
7. Chuck Goody Jr 15
8. Karsten Kadinger 12
9. Sami Owens 10
10. Charles Walker 5

And, finally, shot blocks

1. Sami Owens 98
2. Charles Walker 93
3. GOD McZehrl 82
3. Tokek Takshak 82
5. Poopity Scoop 80
6. Toivo Kosonen 79
7. Karsten Kadinger 78
8. Geoff Moore 73
9. Chuck Goody Jr 66
10. Casey Creller 58

So now... let's put these rankings together and average them

Poopity Scoop 2, 1, 4, 4, 1, 5 = 2.8
Geoff Moore 4, 5, 1, 2, 6, 8 = 4.3
GOD McZehrl 7, 8, 5, 3, 3, 3 = 4.8
Toivo Kosonen 8, 2, 10, 1, 3, 6 = 5.0
Karsten Kadinger 1, 4, 2, 9, 8, 7 = 5.2
Sami Owens 9, 3, 6, 6, 9, 1 = 5.7
Charles Walker 3, 6, 8, 8, 10, 2 = 6.2
Tokek Takshak 10, 10, 3, 10, 5, 3 = 6.8
Casey Creller 6, 9, 9, 5, 2, 10 = 6.8
Chuck Goody Jr 5, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9 = 7.0

So yes, I think it's really hard to say Scoop is bad considering the fact that this factors in virtually every defensive metric we have available to us. Hopefully this clears up the insinuations of bias.

Where’s Koch Schroder though.

Literally says: "This leaves us with 10 defensemen who have a CF% of 50%+, 829+ steals, and a 1.2 or greater TA/GA ratio."

If a player is not there, they did not meet this criteria

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