For real though, this sucks to see, but it's an established precedent thanks to Clardy and there's nowhere else for HO to go here. I hope NEW figures it out.
What's the point of an approval process if they take none of the liability? HO is the group that both approves trades and punishes trades that were incorrect. Who's the final line of defense to keep bad trades from happening?! This new system is just more bureaucracy with the same mistakes and same 100% liability to the GMs.
What's more, this system is super susceptible to corruption. HO has no incentive whatsoever to ensure the approval is legitimate, but the approver is granted the capacity to maliciously ensure a team makes bad trades and then takes none of the blame when the GM gets taken down. I'm not saying this happened to Ace, but it's definitely a gaping hole in the rules.
1. HO is subject to punishment for this as well.
2. GMs will still be punished if an officially posted trade is not approved by HO because they already traded a pick.
It's not perfect and HO definitely deserves some blame for this, which happened in part because of an error by the former pick tracker leaving a traded pick with NEW and in part due to HO not catching this error either beforehand or when the trade was made. But the responsibility to know which picks you own and do not own has always fallen on the GMs and should have been abundantly clear to Ace based on the results of the previous two incidents.
You have fair points, just addressing #2: NEW management did have HO approval to make the trade.
08-19-2020, 04:42 PMBaelor Swift Wrote: 1. HO is subject to punishment for this as well.
2. GMs will still be punished if an officially posted trade is not approved by HO because they already traded a pick.
It's not perfect and HO definitely deserves some blame for this, which happened in part because of an error by the former pick tracker leaving a traded pick with NEW and in part due to HO not catching this error either beforehand or when the trade was made. But the responsibility to know which picks you own and do not own has always fallen on the GMs and should have been abundantly clear to Ace based on the results of the previous two incidents.
You have fair points, just addressing #2: NEW management did have HO approval to make the trade.
Only because NEW didn't correct an issue from before HO tookover the draft pick tracker. HO asked all GMs to check the draft pick tracker that they received from Serpe for accuracy.
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08-19-2020, 05:03 PMboom Wrote: @Thunfish @Winter is Coming Firing a GM for the second offense of double-trading a pick is standardized in the rulebook and Ace was still on probation from the last time.
Ah, fair, thanks. Didn't know that was a thing, sorry.
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08-20-2020, 01:23 AMbbjygm Wrote: You have fair points, just addressing #2: NEW management did have HO approval to make the trade.
Only because NEW didn't correct an issue from before HO tookover the draft pick tracker. HO asked all GMs to check the draft pick tracker that they received from Serpe for accuracy.
Feels like a lot of work to put the blamely solely on Ace instead of acknowledging that there could be flaws in the way HO handled pick trackers and in general on how they approve trades
08-20-2020, 01:32 AMml002 Wrote: Only because NEW didn't correct an issue from before HO tookover the draft pick tracker. HO asked all GMs to check the draft pick tracker that they received from Serpe for accuracy.
Feels like a lot of work to put the blamely solely on Ace instead of acknowledging that there could be flaws in the way HO handled pick trackers and in general on how they approve trades
You know what's not a lot of work? Correctly tracking your picks
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08-20-2020, 02:17 AMMazatt Wrote: Feels like a lot of work to put the blamely solely on Ace instead of acknowledging that there could be flaws in the way HO handled pick trackers and in general on how they approve trades
You know what's not a lot of work? Correctly tracking your picks
I forgot saying that that was a Herculean effort, my b. Even if the onus is on Ace to track his pick there can't be any lessons we can take out of this to improve the way the league tracks/handles picks trades?
08-20-2020, 02:17 AMMazatt Wrote: Feels like a lot of work to put the blamely solely on Ace instead of acknowledging that there could be flaws in the way HO handled pick trackers and in general on how they approve trades
You know what's not a lot of work? Correctly tracking your picks
If only there was a thing made for tracking picks to make sure faults like this doesn't happen. And in case that fails, you have an extra safety net to make sure things go about the right way.
But nah, that would make too much sense.
The only mistake Ace did is missing one pick when confirming things. A pick that HO also missed themselves. But I don't think it's possible to to change your mind at this point, as you seem hellbent on Ace being the devil incarnate.
08-20-2020, 02:24 AMml002 Wrote: You know what's not a lot of work? Correctly tracking your picks
If only there was a thing made for tracking picks to make sure faults like this doesn't happen. And in case that fails, you have an extra safety net to make sure things go about the right way.
But nah, that would make too much sense.
The only mistake Ace did is missing one pick when confirming things. A pick that HO also missed themselves. But I don't think it's possible to to change your mind at this point, as you seem hellbent on Ace being the devil incarnate.
Lol I have no personal issue with Ace. My problem is with people who have their blinders on so tight they only see what they want.
We switched systems after Ace's previous mistakes. HO, in the transition, asked us GMs to double check our picks from the recent past since we are responsible for them and they wanted to make the transition as easy as possible. How is it on HO to check every trade from before they tookover pick tracking? You understand that would mean verifying as far back as five seasons for picks?
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08-20-2020, 02:46 AMZema Wrote: If only there was a thing made for tracking picks to make sure faults like this doesn't happen. And in case that fails, you have an extra safety net to make sure things go about the right way.
But nah, that would make too much sense.
The only mistake Ace did is missing one pick when confirming things. A pick that HO also missed themselves. But I don't think it's possible to to change your mind at this point, as you seem hellbent on Ace being the devil incarnate.
Lol I have no personal issue with Ace. My problem is with people who have their blinders on so tight they only see what they want.
We switched systems after Ace's previous mistakes. HO, in the transition, asked us GMs to double check our picks from the recent past since we are responsible for them and they wanted to make the transition as easy as possible. How is it on HO to check every trade from before they tookover pick tracking? You understand that would mean verifying as far back as five seasons for picks?
I see it as both of them making mistakes, fuck me right?
But with HO taking over the pick tracker, they should verify themselves that things are correct. Especially with how poorly managed it was before. Even if it's just a backtrack of 1 or 2 seasons, they must still do that job. HO seems to not want to take responsibility for getting things done correctly and rather put that onus on others and let them get punished for it if they make a mistake.
08-20-2020, 02:54 AMml002 Wrote: Lol I have no personal issue with Ace. My problem is with people who have their blinders on so tight they only see what they want.
We switched systems after Ace's previous mistakes. HO, in the transition, asked us GMs to double check our picks from the recent past since we are responsible for them and they wanted to make the transition as easy as possible. How is it on HO to check every trade from before they tookover pick tracking? You understand that would mean verifying as far back as five seasons for picks?
I see it as both of them making mistakes, fuck me right?
But with HO taking over the pick tracker, they should verify themselves that things are correct. Especially with how poorly managed it was before. Even if it's just a backtrack of 1 or 2 seasons, they must still do that job. HO seems to not want to take responsibility for getting things done correctly and rather put that onus on others and let them get punished for it if they make a mistake.
In case you lost the ability to read, HO will be getting punisged as well. Ace received a punishment that he was aware he would in this situation, one that is clearly defined and a situation he entirely put himself in.
The argument to absolve Ace if blame is impossible. HO will be punished by the owners in the future upon their review. HO followed the clearly written and stated rulebook otherwise. So what, again, is your issue if BOTH sides are getting punished as per the letter of the fucking law?
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08-20-2020, 03:04 AMZema Wrote: I see it as both of them making mistakes, fuck me right?
But with HO taking over the pick tracker, they should verify themselves that things are correct. Especially with how poorly managed it was before. Even if it's just a backtrack of 1 or 2 seasons, they must still do that job. HO seems to not want to take responsibility for getting things done correctly and rather put that onus on others and let them get punished for it if they make a mistake.
In case you lost the ability to read, HO will be getting punisged as well. Ace received a punishment that he was aware he would in this situation, one that is clearly defined and a situation he entirely put himself in.
The argument to absolve Ace if blame is impossible. HO will be punished by the owners in the future upon their review. HO followed the clearly written and stated rulebook otherwise. So what, again, is your issue if BOTH sides are getting punished as per the letter of the fucking law?
They're taking responsibility for fucking up, but aren't taking responsibility for getting things done correctly. They put a system in place with a pick tracker, but it's on the GMs to make sure it works? That's the responsibility I'm talking about. They are taking the easy way out. And you just know that whenever something new will have to get implemented they are gonna put the responsibility on the GMs to make sure it works instead of putting the time and effort to get the job done properly.
This is especially fucked after it was terribly implemented and updated the first time around. You'd figure they would put some competent people in charge to make sure things are done correctly this time around.
Ace has accepted his punishment and won't appeal it, so he understands the letter of the law like he says. I'm saying it's bs because HO routinely fucked up to allow this to happen.
08-20-2020, 03:43 AMJayWhy Wrote: In case you lost the ability to read, HO will be getting punisged as well. Ace received a punishment that he was aware he would in this situation, one that is clearly defined and a situation he entirely put himself in.
The argument to absolve Ace if blame is impossible. HO will be punished by the owners in the future upon their review. HO followed the clearly written and stated rulebook otherwise. So what, again, is your issue if BOTH sides are getting punished as per the letter of the fucking law?
They're taking responsibility for fucking up, but aren't taking responsibility for getting things done correctly. They put a system in place with a pick tracker, but it's on the GMs to make sure it works? That's the responsibility I'm talking about. They are taking the easy way out. And you just know that whenever something new will have to get implemented they are gonna put the responsibility on the GMs to make sure it works instead of putting the time and effort to get the job done properly.
This is especially fucked after it was terribly implemented and updated the first time around. You'd figure they would put some competent people in charge to make sure things are done correctly this time around.
Ace has accepted his punishment and won't appeal it, so he understands the letter of the law like he says. I'm saying it's bs because HO routinely fucked up to allow this to happen.
So what do you expect to be done if HO wants to take the responsibility for getting things done correctly? Because to me it sounds like the only thing you would accept that way is to clear Ace of the punishment, which is absolutely not going to happen and I can guarantee you a lot more people than just NEW players would have had an issue with that. The rule stated previously that GMs track their picks. HO wanted to help them, so they relied on this rule, and asked GMs to give them their supposedly previously correct track pickers so they can follow them up and take a part of the burden. Ace failed to provide them with a correct pick tracker. He double trades a pick. Whatever HO should've/could've done is completely pointless at this point. HO relied on clear, defined rules and Ace failed to follow. The end. Nothing changes this.
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08-20-2020, 03:43 AMJayWhy Wrote: In case you lost the ability to read, HO will be getting punisged as well. Ace received a punishment that he was aware he would in this situation, one that is clearly defined and a situation he entirely put himself in.
The argument to absolve Ace if blame is impossible. HO will be punished by the owners in the future upon their review. HO followed the clearly written and stated rulebook otherwise. So what, again, is your issue if BOTH sides are getting punished as per the letter of the fucking law?
They're taking responsibility for fucking up, but aren't taking responsibility for getting things done correctly. They put a system in place with a pick tracker, but it's on the GMs to make sure it works? That's the responsibility I'm talking about. They are taking the easy way out. And you just know that whenever something new will have to get implemented they are gonna put the responsibility on the GMs to make sure it works instead of putting the time and effort to get the job done properly.
This is especially fucked after it was terribly implemented and updated the first time around. You'd figure they would put some competent people in charge to make sure things are done correctly this time around.
Ace has accepted his punishment and won't appeal it, so he understands the letter of the law like he says. I'm saying it's bs because HO routinely fucked up to allow this to happen.
GMs have 1 team to worry about, HO has the whole league to worry about. GMs should be tracking their picks as it is, to let something like this fall through the cracks is ridiculous. The system in place doesn't work if all parts don't work corectly, and GMs are part of that process, especially in keeping track of their picks and trades. HO should (and will) face punishment for this, but Ace should have never put himself and the team in that situation in the first place. There's clearly an issue when you constantly make that mistake and there's a precedent in place for removal after multiple offenses. It's not BS to follow that precedent, and it's not BS to expect GMs to keep track of their team. In every sim league it seems like people are so quick to blame HO, and not their GM for making mistakes, because everyone else is innocent and HO is some corrupt force that is there to keep everyone down, but the fact of the matter is all parts of this failed, and each part has to take responsibility for their failures. All this talk of BS this BS that, especially from the Wolfpack players who think their GM should be exempt from the punishment, does nothing but hurt the reputation of the team and only shows that they can't accept the punishment, while Ace himself has accepted it.
08-20-2020, 04:14 AMZema Wrote: They're taking responsibility for fucking up, but aren't taking responsibility for getting things done correctly. They put a system in place with a pick tracker, but it's on the GMs to make sure it works? That's the responsibility I'm talking about. They are taking the easy way out. And you just know that whenever something new will have to get implemented they are gonna put the responsibility on the GMs to make sure it works instead of putting the time and effort to get the job done properly.
This is especially fucked after it was terribly implemented and updated the first time around. You'd figure they would put some competent people in charge to make sure things are done correctly this time around.
Ace has accepted his punishment and won't appeal it, so he understands the letter of the law like he says. I'm saying it's bs because HO routinely fucked up to allow this to happen.
So what do you expect to be done if HO wants to take the responsibility for getting things done correctly? Because to me it sounds like the only thing you would accept that way is to clear Ace of the punishment, which is absolutely not going to happen and I can guarantee you a lot more people than just NEW players would have had an issue with that. The rule stated previously that GMs track their picks. HO wanted to help them, so they relied on this rule, and asked GMs to give them their supposedly previously correct track pickers so they can follow them up and take a part of the burden. Ace failed to provide them with a correct pick tracker. He double trades a pick. Whatever HO should've/could've done is completely pointless at this point. HO relied on clear, defined rules and Ace failed to follow. The end. Nothing changes this.
Nothing changes the fact that it happens and it can't be reversed. My problem is that after a poorly done job, they followed that up with... yet another poorly implemented job? They have already failed at their job. They took on the responsibility of tracking the picks, and yet don't make sure it's correctly done? At this point they might as well claim no responsibility once again over the picks, no due process in accepting trades and just make sure GMs don't fuck up.
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