08-21-2018, 01:42 AMNUCK Wrote: If the SHL has lasted 42 seasons and out populated and out lived every other league. Why the fuck would you think we need to change the core player building to help out struggling leagues?
I really dont like this
Because I guess the HO aren't greedy and want to help out other leagues. It's not like we're better than those leagues either.
I'm not gonna go as far as ruutu and say fuck those other leagues, even if I don't care about those sports I hope they are successful because ultimately, a successful and diverse sim league scene helps everyone. But leagues do have different distinct characters and watering down those difference is not a good idea, there are different concepts and different target audiences and it should stay that way so that we can reach different kinds of people. And simply put, for me the SHL is the try-hard league. The one where you have to put in the most work, but where the experience is also the most rewarding because the "sim-universe" is so expansive and complex, with lots of different systems, storylines, history etc. If you don't like that then there are other hockey sim leagues like the VHL which is sort of middle of the pack, or the GOMHL which emphasizes the casual factor. And then of course there are lost of others sports with their different leagues, be it basketball, football, baseball or racing. Lots of different leagues for people to choose from if you don't like the SHL's approach. And besides, you can still be a contributing SHL-member as a semi-active, it's not like you have to put in a lot of work here to build a 1000+ TPE player. You only need to do it if you want to be one of the leagues superstars - and superstars should have earned their place, not gotten it through randomness and handouts. The fact that you have to put in the work is what ultimately makes the results and your successes rewarding. I have won cups in the GOMHL and the VHL, i have won personal awards and other stuff, many more than in the SHL. But the few trophies from the SHL felt much more rewarding, because they are much harder to get and because I knew I had actually put in work to earn them.
And come on now Zach, can you be a little less dramatic and hyperbolic please, this has been a good factual discussion so far and I'd like to keep it that way. I just checked those announcement threads in these other leagues that you claimed are full of people who are super excited and happy about this change, but all I found were a handful of one-liners and like 7 posts overall in each thread, no complex thoughts or in-depth discussions on the matter. If anything, it feels like this thread right here is the one were people are actually looking into this and trying to weigh the pro and cons and maybe you should accept that instead of trying to shut the other side up with your "could someone please think of the children/other leagues feelings" rhetoric, that's just a dick move.
08-21-2018, 01:42 AMNUCK Wrote: If the SHL has lasted 42 seasons and out populated and out lived every other league. Why the fuck would you think we need to change the core player building to help out struggling leagues?
I really dont like this
Because I guess the HO aren't greedy and want to help out other leagues. It's not like we're better than those leagues either.
That's my personal opinion but it doesn't make a difference sense a handful of people decided it already.
08-21-2018, 09:46 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: I'm not gonna go as far as ruutu and say fuck those other leagues, even if I don't care about those sports I hope they are successful because ultimately, a successful and diverse sim league scene helps everyone. But leagues do have different distinct characters and watering down those difference is not a good idea, there are different concepts and different target audiences and it should stay that way so that we can reach different kinds of people. And simply put, for me the SHL is the try-hard league. The one where you have to put in the most work, but where the experience is also the most rewarding because the "sim-universe" is so expansive and complex, with lots of different systems, storylines, history etc. If you don't like that then there are other hockey sim leagues like the VHL which is sort of middle of the pack, or the GOMHL which emphasizes the casual factor. And then of course there are lost of others sports with their different leagues, be it basketball, football, baseball or racing. Lots of different leagues for people to choose from if you don't like the SHL's approach. And besides, you can still be a contributing SHL-member as a semi-active, it's not like you have to put in a lot of work here to build a 1000+ TPE player. You only need to do it if you want to be one of the leagues superstars - and superstars should have earned their place, not gotten it through randomness and handouts. The fact that you have to put in the work is what ultimately makes the results and your successes rewarding. I have won cups in the GOMHL and the VHL, i have won personal awards and other stuff, many more than in the SHL. But the few trophies from the SHL felt much more rewarding, because they are much harder to get and because I knew I had actually put in work to earn them.
And come on now Zach, can you be a little less dramatic and hyperbolic please, this has been a good factual discussion so far and I'd like to keep it that way. I just checked those announcement threads in these other leagues that you claimed are full of people who are super excited and happy about this change, but all I found were a handful of one-liners and like 7 posts overall in each thread, no complex thoughts or in-depth discussions on the matter. If anything, it feels like this thread right here is the one were people are actually looking into this and trying to weigh the pro and cons and maybe you should accept that instead of trying to shut the other side up with your "could someone please think of the children/other leagues feelings" rhetoric, that's just a dick move.
We're talking about 15 TPE here, guys. Less than 10% of what someone actually earns each season going full tilt. A tiny, tiny fraction of the effort required to earn money for weekly training and equipment, no matter how you earn it. The entire point of the "PT Union" is that the work is still being done... just on a different site. Do it here, do it there, whatever, but have more fun because you can participate a little easier in multiple leagues. Don't tell me you think those PTs are important or something- if they are, why aren't we all reading each others work?
Literally get over yourselves. This is some OSRS "devalues my character" protest level shit.
08-21-2018, 09:41 AMWhite Cornerback Wrote: I usually refrain from commenting or posting but I feel compelled to respond to this so let's start.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: Instead of working on their own product and seeing if there is something they could do better/differently on how users build their players, how the update scale works, are the PT´s interesting or challenging enough, is the TPE handed out too much etc etc,
Because this is clearly an opportunity cost situation right, no league could possibly ever improve it's own experience while affiliating with another right? That's just physically impossible.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: SHL opened the door to other leagues to come in and water down everything.
Elitism Counter: 1.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: With this ´improvement´, less people will do the actual PT´s here, which is worrying since you can have a solid career without writing media or having a job - basically giving a free ticket to be a top player by teaming up with other leagues, doing the minimum now gives you a lot more than in the past
Without repeating what others have said, I don't know a single person who reads other PT's nonetheless remembers their own after they've spewed it out. So let's get into it. By allowing the PT link, saying you ONLY did that throughout your career and nothing else, you would be set for 3 whole TPE a week by your logic. Ie not doing WPT's/WFT's buying equipment, writing media, AC's or weekly training and that's a free ticket to be a top player? Right.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: that is wrong and only benefits the other leagues. SHL drops down to their level, instead of closing the door and kicking the snakes from other leagues out of power.
Elitism Counter: 2.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: Whoever even suggested anything like this should be fired right away.
Ah rational thinking.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: SHL has always been the top league in my eyes,
my eyes being the key word to focus on here fellas. It's great you made this clear because otherwise reading the rest of your comment I would've never deduced that you are a fan of the high horse mentality.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: - I mean honestly. If you don´t want to do them or don´t like them, that is fine, but why the need to bring other leagues in?
I've bolded a point you mentioned about doing PT's but ironically could you not take your own advice here? If you don't want to PT link YOU don't have to. This reminds me of the adage about getting mad about the guy infront of you in Subway ordering a sub while you can only have salad because you're on a diet.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: Are people now going to join SHL because in the past they could not find, what 1h of their week to do AC, training and the PT´s?
Possibly but that's not what this link is for. This isn't a reddit recruitment link, the idea behind this is users that have went inactive in the past or left for greener pastures elsewhere can comeback to the SHL and be apart of the community, where elsewhere they would remain inactive. Not to count the fact that the NSFL's core audience now comes from first gen sim leaguers straight from reddit (football), an audience you otherwise wouldn't have a chance to reach out to, likewise with PBE and baseball.)
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: No, this is 100% playing to the hands of PBE and NFSL who got nothing to lose by teaming up with a league with as many users as SHL has, the fact that this is something considered worth even trying is already a big loss to SHL and again helps PBE and NFSL.
Elitism Counter: 3.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: Soon SHL wont be the top league anymore, others are catching up and instead of trying to run away - SHL stops and waits for them.
I've refrained from using personal attacks in my response mainly because I don't subscribe to the ad hominem way of thinking but good lord. Kicking out the snakes? Playing into their hands, you're aware the fall from that high horse of yours has killed many more formidable right?
Since I got you here, answer me this: lets say I´m in HO and I got an idea, I want to write the PT´s in Finnish. For some reason that gets support and it´s even put in place, you can now write the PT´s in Finnish if you want. Don´t have to, but you can. It´s promoted as a way to bring in users from Finland, big hockey market and all that. At the same time users who cant speak Finnish are asking if that is a good idea, why can Finnish users write in their native language, but then users from Germany, France etc still have to write in English? Would it be safe to suggest that since I´m from Finland, me suggesting idea like that has very little to do with me wanting to actually bring Finnish users in, but mostly just me trying to make my day to day life as easy as possible by just writing in Finnish and not in English that takes longer?
We're talking about 15 TPE here, guys. Less than 10% of what someone actually earns each season going full tilt. A tiny, tiny fraction of the effort required to earn money for weekly training and equipment, no matter how you earn it. The entire point of the "PT Union" is that the work is still being done... just on a different site. Do it here, do it there, whatever, but have more fun because you can participate a little easier in multiple leagues. Don't tell me you think those PTs are important or something- if they are, why aren't we all reading each others work?
Literally get over yourselves. This is some OSRS "devalues my character" protest level shit.
We're talking about 15 TPE here, guys. Less than 10% of what someone actually earns each season going full tilt. A tiny, tiny fraction of the effort required to earn money for weekly training and equipment, no matter how you earn it. The entire point of the "PT Union" is that the work is still being done... just on a different site. Do it here, do it there, whatever, but have more fun because you can participate a little easier in multiple leagues. Don't tell me you think those PTs are important or something- if they are, why aren't we all reading each others work?
Literally get over yourselves. This is some OSRS "devalues my character" protest level shit.
We aren't talking about 15 TPE, we are talking about 250+ TPE over the course of a career.
I have only been back for a few days but the site does seem less active then before. I just think it's not a good idea to divert anymore traffic from the SHL to a competetior league.
08-21-2018, 09:46 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: And come on now Zach, can you be a little less dramatic and hyperbolic please, this has been a good factual discussion so far and I'd like to keep it that way. I just checked those announcement threads in these other leagues that you claimed are full of people who are super excited and happy about this change, but all I found were a handful of one-liners and like 7 posts overall in each thread, no complex thoughts or in-depth discussions on the matter. If anything, it feels like this thread right here is the one were people are actually looking into this and trying to weigh the pro and cons and maybe you should accept that instead of trying to shut the other side up with your "could someone please think of the children/other leagues feelings" rhetoric, that's just a dick move.
Go back and read my original post. I didn't say anything about those threads overflowing with people celebrating. I said people expressed interest in coming over here. That is factual. If anyone is using rhetoric here to exaggerate my claim and silence opposition with 700 word dissertations, it's you, friend.
We're talking about 15 TPE here, guys. Less than 10% of what someone actually earns each season going full tilt. A tiny, tiny fraction of the effort required to earn money for weekly training and equipment, no matter how you earn it. The entire point of the "PT Union" is that the work is still being done... just on a different site. Do it here, do it there, whatever, but have more fun because you can participate a little easier in multiple leagues. Don't tell me you think those PTs are important or something- if they are, why aren't we all reading each others work?
Literally get over yourselves. This is some OSRS "devalues my character" protest level shit.
We aren't talking about 15 TPE, we are talking about 250+ TPE over the course of a career.
I didn't think about that, that's a Very good point
08-21-2018, 09:24 AMztevans Wrote: Seriously, I'm practically pleading on hands and knees here. I'm tired of seeing friends go inactive because of the expectation that you're supposed to literally bleed and sweat over this league or you don't deserve a good player.
Bleed and sweat, cmon. PT´s here are 150 words, AC and training is not much, then other small prediction etc tasks. I´m willing to bet most people have the time do them IF they wanted do them. Championship week is a big one, but still need to do was it 4 or 5 tasks to get the max points. Do all of those every week, takes roughly 1 hour, I´m amazed if you are not a elite player in the end.
Also, what about the users who can ´bleed and sweat´? Do you ever think about them when handing out medals for just turning up?
Then what are we arguing about? That those people will spend 45 minutes instead of an hour on SHL tasks?
I am aware it doesn't take that much time to build a good player. Its the mindset put off by certain users that it *should* be that I'm talking about. With contract rule changes and constant complaints about job pay, we basically use our actions to consistently say semi-actives aren't welcome here, and the actives should be more active to do what they do. That's how the SHL carries itself, and it is absurd.
I don´t know why we are arguing? Why is it so bad to ask people to spend 1 h instead of 45 minutes?
I´m not asking the PT´s to be longer or have more of them, the system is just fine, could maybe tweak how much TPE you get from them or how the update scale works, since some have mentioned there are users with TPE in bank with nowhere to put it due to being a ´complete´ player already. I´ve never had a job in SHL, so cant comment on the pay rate, I very rarely write articles, I do all the PT´s though and I can honestly say that you can build a great player as a ´semi-active´.
08-21-2018, 09:41 AMWhite Cornerback Wrote: I usually refrain from commenting or posting but I feel compelled to respond to this so let's start.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: Instead of working on their own product and seeing if there is something they could do better/differently on how users build their players, how the update scale works, are the PT´s interesting or challenging enough, is the TPE handed out too much etc etc,
Because this is clearly an opportunity cost situation right, no league could possibly ever improve it's own experience while affiliating with another right? That's just physically impossible.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: SHL opened the door to other leagues to come in and water down everything.
Elitism Counter: 1.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: With this ´improvement´, less people will do the actual PT´s here, which is worrying since you can have a solid career without writing media or having a job - basically giving a free ticket to be a top player by teaming up with other leagues, doing the minimum now gives you a lot more than in the past
Without repeating what others have said, I don't know a single person who reads other PT's nonetheless remembers their own after they've spewed it out. So let's get into it. By allowing the PT link, saying you ONLY did that throughout your career and nothing else, you would be set for 3 whole TPE a week by your logic. Ie not doing WPT's/WFT's buying equipment, writing media, AC's or weekly training and that's a free ticket to be a top player? Right.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: that is wrong and only benefits the other leagues. SHL drops down to their level, instead of closing the door and kicking the snakes from other leagues out of power.
Elitism Counter: 2.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: Whoever even suggested anything like this should be fired right away.
Ah rational thinking.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: SHL has always been the top league in my eyes,
my eyes being the key word to focus on here fellas. It's great you made this clear because otherwise reading the rest of your comment I would've never deduced that you are a fan of the high horse mentality.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: - I mean honestly. If you don´t want to do them or don´t like them, that is fine, but why the need to bring other leagues in?
I've bolded a point you mentioned about doing PT's but ironically could you not take your own advice here? If you don't want to PT link YOU don't have to. This reminds me of the adage about getting mad about the guy infront of you in Subway ordering a sub while you can only have salad because you're on a diet.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: Are people now going to join SHL because in the past they could not find, what 1h of their week to do AC, training and the PT´s?
Possibly but that's not what this link is for. This isn't a reddit recruitment link, the idea behind this is users that have went inactive in the past or left for greener pastures elsewhere can comeback to the SHL and be apart of the community, where elsewhere they would remain inactive. Not to count the fact that the NSFL's core audience now comes from first gen sim leaguers straight from reddit (football), an audience you otherwise wouldn't have a chance to reach out to, likewise with PBE and baseball.)
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: No, this is 100% playing to the hands of PBE and NFSL who got nothing to lose by teaming up with a league with as many users as SHL has, the fact that this is something considered worth even trying is already a big loss to SHL and again helps PBE and NFSL.
Elitism Counter: 3.
08-21-2018, 09:10 AMjRuutu Wrote: Soon SHL wont be the top league anymore, others are catching up and instead of trying to run away - SHL stops and waits for them.
I've refrained from using personal attacks in my response mainly because I don't subscribe to the ad hominem way of thinking but good lord. Kicking out the snakes? Playing into their hands, you're aware the fall from that high horse of yours has killed many more formidable right?
Since I got you here, answer me this: lets say I´m in HO and I got an idea, I want to write the PT´s in Finnish. For some reason that gets support and it´s even put in place, you can now write the PT´s in Finnish if you want. Don´t have to, but you can. It´s promoted as a way to bring in users from Finland, big hockey market and all that. At the same time users who cant speak Finnish are asking if that is a good idea, why can Finnish users write in their native language, but then users from Germany, France etc still have to write in English? Would it be safe to suggest that since I´m from Finland, me suggesting idea like that has very little to do with me wanting to actually bring Finnish users in, but mostly just me trying to make my day to day life as easy as possible by just writing in Finnish and not in English that takes longer?
If the crutch of your point is on another league denying you the ability to do your PT's in whatever language you want (Finnish), I don't think any league in the entire world would get angry at you and prevent you from typing your PT's in finnish providing that you can translate them when asked by whatever PPT team is grading them for clarity.
If the SHL did allow you to do your PT's in Finnish, (Great I can write mine in Irish now) it wouldn't matter if the NSFL or PBE didn't allow the PT's in finnish. You would literally just link you doing the PT here there in this affiliation and that's in the off chance that for some reason we would be finnish language haters???
On Jcink it was actually like a violation of terms of service or something crazy like that to not post in English. Is that still the case with this new forum? @Eggy216 @DrunkenTeddy ?
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