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***WannabeFinn*** · 11-23-2019, 12:18 AM

11-23-2019, 12:12 AMSecondSucks22 Wrote:
11-22-2019, 11:51 PMMike Izzy Wrote: wouldnt be opposed to having HO create some wording around exploits. even if its around privatley alerting HO of any loopholes they find or hear about before using.... just because the geenie is out of the bottle now.. we dont want white box testers, developers looking into the coding to find ways moving forward, or members scouring the net serching for known exploits of a code.

It's easy enough adding something like this

"If in test simming you find a stray that has a win % of ___ or more over x amount of games, please contact ho before moving forward"

Wow that sure is easy

***39alaska39*** · 11-23-2019, 12:32 AM

Whatever you think about what happened with Hamilton’s involvement in this, I am genuinely surprised that some people around Hamilton seem shocked that people are mad at them for finding a way to break the sim. What was expected? Did they think they would be praised for this or what?

Alex Winters (retired)
Matej Winters (retired)
Dominik Winters
S45 Jesster Trophy Winner
Challenge Cup Winning Goal Club: S52

***WannabeFinn*** · 11-23-2019, 12:35 AM

11-23-2019, 12:32 AM39alaska39 Wrote: Whatever you think about what happened with Hamilton’s involvement in this, I am genuinely surprised that some people around Hamilton seem shocked that people are mad at them for finding a way to break the sim. What was expected? Did they think they would be praised for this or what?

You just don’t appreciate genius when you see it

ACapitalChicago · 11-23-2019, 12:36 AM

11-23-2019, 12:32 AM39alaska39 Wrote: Whatever you think about what happened with Hamilton’s involvement in this, I am genuinely surprised that some people around Hamilton seem shocked that people are mad at them for finding a way to break the sim. What was expected? Did they think they would be praised for this or what?

On the one hand, everything in this league has some sort of negative reaction to some degree and everyone is just trying to win, even if in different ways. On the other, some of the vitriol directed towards Hamilton has been excessive and unproductive. Even as someone who was frustrated with Hamilton, we all just want the SHL to succeed in the end and we need to remember that.

S66 Damian Littleton

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***notorioustig*** · 11-23-2019, 12:45 AM

11-23-2019, 12:32 AM39alaska39 Wrote: Whatever you think about what happened with Hamilton’s involvement in this, I am genuinely surprised that some people around Hamilton seem shocked that people are mad at them for finding a way to break the sim. What was expected? Did they think they would be praised for this or what?

I've explained this at length previously but we didn't know it was sim breaking. We had test sims in the .700-.750 range which is very very good but still in the upper range of believable (S49 had two teams above .700). We expected that we'd eventually be countered, other GMs tried to find a counter and discovered it couldn't be done, which we did not know. People can be mad, sure. I could do without people acting like we're criminals when we didn't break any rules or do anything with malicious intent though.

I don't know how I can make this any clearer that we didn't hack our way into the sim, extract some god mode cheat, and try to pull the wool over everyone's eyes with something we knew was invincible. We just found something that put us at or near the top in our tests, and built towards it. Would we do it again? Of course not, now that we know it destroys the whole damn thing. I don't think we're surprised so much as getting our backs up at the entire site basically spitting on us.

ztevans · 11-23-2019, 12:58 AM

11-22-2019, 11:19 PMBDonini Wrote:
11-22-2019, 11:11 PMnotorioustig Wrote: I'd say read my earlier post but somehow doubt you're open to changing your perspective on this. What would you suggest is an appropriate punishment in this case?

Ban the 3 responsible from management, we don't have an unlimited supply of hockey sim programs to break and there's no need to make the rest of the team pay for doing what their GMs tell them

Okay, but he asked for a punishment.

nour · 11-23-2019, 02:19 AM

why does everyone keep arguing you guys know its getting no where right?

look both sides here have some genuine merit that the other is completely ignoring. Half the group wants Hamilton crucified and jumps at every piss take they here as long as its an anti-steelhawks sentiment, and Hamilton keeps arguing “we were just trying to win” ignoring the fact that for every other team now has to wait because we broke it. There’s a middle ground that sees that but theyre getting trumped by 2 sides here that seem to just genuinely enjoy arguing for the sake of it.

If you guys insist on arguing, at least make an effort to hear each other out. This is directed to both sides of this. Make some sort of effort to have a discussion where you’re empathetic with the other person. Everyone is on here because they want to have fun here, so this is a loss for every, anti-hamilton or not.

Anyways I guess since a lot of people are wishing to hear a better sentiment, and while I don’t think the situation is nearly as black and white as a lot of people are painting it, I’ll say the following:

Hamilton’s got a bad rep on this site but genuinely we’re a solid group of friends that are incredibly thankful for the opportunity the site and the sim has given us to come together. We’re dumb a lot of the time, we have inside jokes and shit that outside of our LR is nonsensical and stupid. But we’re not bad dudes, they didn’t seek to break the sim, the express purpose of this wasnt to ruin the league for anyone and act like cartoon villains to make sure no one has fun.

Point being, despite all that, we’re sorry. The sim is something everyone comes here for and while the intention was never to break it, we have to accept some responsibility for it being broken. We can’t just blame the engine for sucking. and its absolutely without question unfair to everyone else that the future of this site was put into question because of a strat we played regardless of intention. Doesn’t matter if another GM would or wouldn’t do this, the point is we did it. I think aside from the tone, guys like Tig, Wilson and Hallsy are making points that are valid from the Steelhawks side, but an apology from us is warranted nonetheless.

Anyways I’m not expecting us to hold hands and sing carols together, but I know I don’t speak for myself when i said its not fun to be in a community where everyone hates you and doesn’t even really know you. I hope this is the first step towards bridging the bad relations on this site into something better.

Spread love.

**First GM in SMJHL history to win 3 Four Star Cups back-to-back-to-back**

Waters · 11-23-2019, 02:23 AM

I’ll spread love and also my asshole too

E: I immediately regretted this post

foehammer007 · 11-23-2019, 02:28 AM

Is fhm fun

Waters · 11-23-2019, 02:30 AM

But for a serious sentiment, I can personally say I really do understand the feeling of animosity that people have towards us, but more than anything, we want the site to be better. We want the season to start. We care about the people on the site more than the numbers on the win column. We’re all in the same boat.

Mayuu · 11-23-2019, 02:40 AM

11-23-2019, 12:45 AMnotorioustig Wrote: I don't think we're surprised so much as getting our backs up at the entire site basically spitting on us.

This is the way.

RETIRED

Segi · 11-23-2019, 02:56 AM

Huge thank you to HO and everyone else involved in finding a solution for this situation. I know you must have been under a lot of pressure in the past few days and if this wasn't handled as well, we could have seen the beginning of the end of the league.

***SDCore*** · 11-23-2019, 03:24 AM

11-23-2019, 02:19 AMnour Wrote: why does everyone keep arguing you guys know its getting no where right?

look both sides here have some genuine merit that the other is completely ignoring. Half the group wants Hamilton crucified and jumps at every piss take they here as long as its an anti-steelhawks sentiment, and Hamilton keeps arguing “we were just trying to win” ignoring the fact that for every other team now has to wait because we broke it. There’s a middle ground that sees that but theyre getting trumped by 2 sides here that seem to just genuinely enjoy arguing for the sake of it.

If you guys insist on arguing, at least make an effort to hear each other out. This is directed to both sides of this. Make some sort of effort to have a discussion where you’re empathetic with the other person. Everyone is on here because they want to have fun here, so this is a loss for every, anti-hamilton or not.

Anyways I guess since a lot of people are wishing to hear a better sentiment, and while I don’t think the situation is nearly as black and white as a lot of people are painting it, I’ll say the following:

Hamilton’s got a bad rep on this site but genuinely we’re a solid group of friends that are incredibly thankful for the opportunity the site and the sim has given us to come together. We’re dumb a lot of the time, we have inside jokes and shit that outside of our LR is nonsensical and stupid. But we’re not bad dudes, they didn’t seek to break the sim, the express purpose of this wasnt to ruin the league for anyone and act like cartoon villains to make sure no one has fun.

Point being, despite all that, we’re sorry. The sim is something everyone comes here for and while the intention was never to break it, we have to accept some responsibility for it being broken. We can’t just blame the engine for sucking. and its absolutely without question unfair to everyone else that the future of this site was put into question because of a strat we played regardless of intention. Doesn’t matter if another GM would or wouldn’t do this, the point is we did it. I think aside from the tone, guys like Tig, Wilson and Hallsy are making points that are valid from the Steelhawks side, but an apology from us is warranted nonetheless.

Anyways I’m not expecting us to hold hands and sing carols together, but I know I don’t speak for myself when i said its not fun to be in a community where everyone hates you and doesn’t even really know you. I hope this is the first step towards bridging the bad relations on this site into something better.

Spread love.

The more I get to know you the more I like you. Thanks nour

*Otrebor13* · 11-23-2019, 06:20 AM

I might be late to the party but I’d just like to start off by saying thanks to anyone working with the league for putting in the time and effort to keep this league running as smoothly as possible with the least amount of delay as possible. I know there are a ton of people putting in a lot of hours for the betterment of the site and everyone who comes here to enjoy sim hockey, so thanks.

I know this has been beaten to death, but I read through every post in this thread and man oh man, there are a lot of people sitting up on their high horse in here. Obviously nobody likes to have the season delayed and people want to get going. However, for people to come in here and start bashing Hamilton and say they deserve to be punished is laughable to me. People are acting like if they didn’t find this issue or their GMs didn’t tell them about this issue, they wouldn’t have used it themselves.

Everyone on this site is here because they like hockey, they love the sim league community here and they want to win. Everyone has been looking for the optimal build for their players for years now, which is why we have this whole discussion about a lack of build diversity. Why? Because people constantly see that certain builds perform better than others. I think Hamilton put a ton of work in to test simming different builds and happened to find that passing was broken. I’m guessing the thought process was let’s see how low we can take passing to have an optimal team construction/player build. It’s not their fault the sim engine is what it is.

I’ll end this off by saying that it sucks we’ve had to wait a little bit to get the season started, however if this leads to a better SHL in the future and we can get more build diversity (either through harsher scales, more archetypes, different sim engine), then I’m all for it. Hamilton didn’t break any rules. For anyone calling for a punishment, please tell me you haven’t been trying to find an optimal build for your player and had you found it you wouldn’t use it. If you would, then you’re being hypocritical with your punishment demands simply because you didn’t find this first.

jRuutu · 11-23-2019, 07:35 AM

Hopefully Hamilton gets a punishment for this, Hamilton players/management actually started to go forward with the plan and that is where the punishment comes into play, why didnt they come out with the information? Why did you not let HO know? Clearly a game breaking finding - not an master class in testing.

For example Mr. Wilson started dropping the passing around 14.10 - 19.10, so over a month they have known about it and was it one of the updaters that started to wonder why so many older guys started dropping passing? Management did the regression for older players like Garret, Essellem etc = clearly no intention to do the right thing.

Now when they are caught, they are claiming no foul play and that their intentions were innocent, cmooooooooooooon.

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