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Thunfish · 11-28-2019, 10:50 PM

My honest worries are actually related to the massive work to update players. I don't think the process was all that easy on FHM unless I'm looking up the wrong tree.

caltroit_red_flames · 11-28-2019, 11:48 PM

11-28-2019, 10:50 PMThunfish Wrote: My honest worries are actually related to the massive work to update players. I don't think the process was all that easy on FHM unless I'm looking up the wrong tree.

We'd have to go back to the old way of updating. However PBE and NSFL do this right now and SHL lasted about 40 seasons updating that way.

We'll have to hire some interim updaters for the first big update to transfer players from STHS builds to FHM builds, but this is definitely not insurmountable. If this is your worry then I can honestly say that you have nothing to worry about. Lots of people are happy to put in a little work one offseason to help us out and get things finished.

DeletedAtUserRequest · 11-28-2019, 11:59 PM

11-28-2019, 11:48 PMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote:
11-28-2019, 10:50 PMThunfish Wrote: My honest worries are actually related to the massive work to update players. I don't think the process was all that easy on FHM unless I'm looking up the wrong tree.

We'd have to go back to the old way of updating. However PBE and NSFL do this right now and SHL lasted about 40 seasons updating that way.

We'll have to hire some interim updaters for the first big update to transfer players from STHS builds to FHM builds, but this is definitely not insurmountable. If this is your worry then I can honestly say that you have nothing to worry about. Lots of people are happy to put in a little work one offseason to help us out and get things finished.

@caltroit_red_flames

Your kicking ass right now. Thanks for all your doing during this suspicious endeavour Heart

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caltroit_red_flames · 11-29-2019, 12:22 AM

11-28-2019, 11:59 PMMike Izzy Wrote:
11-28-2019, 11:48 PMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote: We'd have to go back to the old way of updating. However PBE and NSFL do this right now and SHL lasted about 40 seasons updating that way.

We'll have to hire some interim updaters for the first big update to transfer players from STHS builds to FHM builds, but this is definitely not insurmountable. If this is your worry then I can honestly say that you have nothing to worry about. Lots of people are happy to put in a little work one offseason to help us out and get things finished.

@caltroit_red_flames

Your kicking ass right now. Thanks for all your doing during this suspicious endeavour

Thanks Izzy, we appreciate the support!

jRuutu · 11-29-2019, 05:16 AM

11-28-2019, 07:02 PMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote:
11-28-2019, 05:12 PMjRuutu Wrote: What happens if a lot of people retire and recreate when the switch happens? (Quite few might call it a day and start fresh in the new sim) Can the junior teams handle large group of active players joining up at once? What happens to the young players already in juniors?
That'd certainly be a problem, but a lot of people like myself will be happy to finish out their careers with FHM. What I see happening is simply players being called up earlier than they usually are now. Teams will have 3rd lines around 500-700 TPE, maybe some teams with second lines like that as well. I don't see that as a big problem. It's something to think about, but like I said a lot of people will stick it out another season at least with their players since they have to redistribute to the FHM attributes.

11-28-2019, 05:12 PMjRuutu Wrote: In Football Managers you can usually find tactics that just work better than others, they take advantage of the game mechanics etc and in result you can do well with a team that is not perhaps expected to do so - is there potential for similar stuff in FHM? Some tactical combination brings you the results and there is not much the other team can do?

Those GM´s and coaches who play the game obviously have advantage early on, but could be equally game breaking if fairly soon after moving to FHM every single team plays with the same tactical ideas. Aggressive hockey with active forechecking for example = build towards playing that = every player start to look the same.

Based on testing so far and those who are experienced with FHM this isn't likely to happen. There are definitely going to be some better tactics, but when teams require multiple player types to be successful you can't expect GMs to give all lines the same tactics. If they do they're gonna have a bad time. Teams need to have penalty killers and defensive players to be successful. Think of it like baseball. You can't have all power hitters otherwise you'll just get a bunch of solo home runs. You need your lead batter to get on base, someone else to get them into scoring position and a third person to get a 3 run home run. You can't have all snipers otherwise nobody is going to play defense or distribute the puck.

But what about the TPE redistribution - if we have team like Hamilton who is actively looking to get that edge, maybe they already know thing or two about FHM = if there is a tactic or style of play that just works better, can league stop them from right away going to that direction with the redistribution of TPE? If they have 10-15 actives or more in the team, potential for pretty shitty start to the ´new´ league when one team steamrolls through everyone?

Wasty · 11-29-2019, 05:22 AM

This all seems very Chicken Little imo

#40 Niclas Wastlund - W - VANCOUVER WHALERS Whalers

/ MINNESOTA MONARCHS

Justice · 11-29-2019, 05:23 AM

AGREED

jRuutu · 11-29-2019, 05:27 AM

11-28-2019, 05:58 PMSegi Wrote:
11-28-2019, 05:12 PMjRuutu Wrote: What happens if a lot of people retire and recreate when the switch happens? (Quite few might call it a day and start fresh in the new sim) Can the junior teams handle large group of active players joining up at once? What happens to the young players already in juniors?

The same will likely happen if they decide to stay on STHS. A lot of people who have suboptimal builds, will just retire and recreate as the meta build. If we switch the engine, people will most likely get to reapply most or all of their tpe, so there isn't that big of a reason to recreate.

Could be, but if they stay in STHS there more than likely will be some kind of rules added in for passing/new archetypes for builds?

11-28-2019, 07:25 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: The funny thing about sim leagues is people are always looking for an edge, but when they can't find one themselves they copy the best thing they see. It happens in FHM GM leagues I'm in too, but the nice thing about FHM is these strategies never last. A lot of the tactics in FHM have tactics that counter them to a certain extent, teams that set one strategy and leave it never stay great for a long time because others find the proper counter strategy and with 16 teams the chances of picking a strategy that counters most of the league is pretty low. Yes sometimes one strat works better than others, but from season to season you can't just set it and forget it.

And that is fine, but there is pretty big risk if/when the move happens,everybody has the ability to be the type of player they want with thousands of TPE. If people already have good idea on what works, despite the need to have different type of players in the team for different roles - how can we be sure the playing field is fair?

If you have a team and group who already know FHM tactics - coming up with a counter to that in a league like this where everybody controls one player is not just 1 season - could be years real life time. You still need to have pretty good team to beat a pretty good team with optimal FHM tactics? Right? Cant just roll in with a lot weaker squad and beat their ass with better tactics work.

I just see one or two teams being ridiculously good right away and its going to take literally years for challengers to figure it out. Get to build optimal FHM builds with free TPE redistribution, coaches/GM´s who know the game, on top of that the advantage/ability of signing top free agents year after year when they know where the ride is sweet = Not going to be too much fun for SHL.

caltroit_red_flames · 11-29-2019, 10:43 AM

@jRuutu I feel like at this point all I can say is that you'll just have to wait and see. We've said a few times in jere and that we're for every solution, STHS or FHM, and we're going to go with the best one for the league. Also that we're searching for exploit we can in both engines and that we'll be doing our best to make sure they aren't used. So now it's just a matter of trusting the people on the team that are trying to save this league. Know that these are some of the most dedicated people out there who want the same thing as you: the SHL to prosper.

@Wasty sorry you feel that way?

***DrunkenTeddy*** · 11-29-2019, 10:51 AM

11-29-2019, 05:27 AMjRuutu Wrote:
11-28-2019, 05:58 PMSegi Wrote: The same will likely happen if they decide to stay on STHS. A lot of people who have suboptimal builds, will just retire and recreate as the meta build. If we switch the engine, people will most likely get to reapply most or all of their tpe, so there isn't that big of a reason to recreate.
Could be, but if they stay in STHS there more than likely will be some kind of rules added in for passing/new archetypes for builds?

11-28-2019, 07:25 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: The funny thing about sim leagues is people are always looking for an edge, but when they can't find one themselves they copy the best thing they see. It happens in FHM GM leagues I'm in too, but the nice thing about FHM is these strategies never last. A lot of the tactics in FHM have tactics that counter them to a certain extent, teams that set one strategy and leave it never stay great for a long time because others find the proper counter strategy and with 16 teams the chances of picking a strategy that counters most of the league is pretty low. Yes sometimes one strat works better than others, but from season to season you can't just set it and forget it.

And that is fine, but there is pretty big risk if/when the move happens,everybody has the ability to be the type of player they want with thousands of TPE. If people already have good idea on what works, despite the need to have different type of players in the team for different roles - how can we be sure the playing field is fair?

If you have a team and group who already know FHM tactics - coming up with a counter to that in a league like this where everybody controls one player is not just 1 season - could be years real life time. You still need to have pretty good team to beat a pretty good team with optimal FHM tactics? Right? Cant just roll in with a lot weaker squad and beat their ass with better tactics work.

I just see one or two teams being ridiculously good right away and its going to take literally years for challengers to figure it out. Get to build optimal FHM builds with free TPE redistribution, coaches/GM´s who know the game, on top of that the advantage/ability of signing top free agents year after year when they know where the ride is sweet = Not going to be too much fun for SHL.

I actually share a lot of the same concerns as you, I am hoping to test for overpowered setups and assuming we don't find anything disruptive to the league I plan to share everything I know about fhm with the league, likely in the form of podcasts and videos showing the sim engine. I may not be the best fhm player but I have 1200 hours in it and I'm happy to share everything I know with the whole league. I may actually record a podcast today talking about tactics and roles in fhm.

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Segi · 11-29-2019, 12:44 PM

11-29-2019, 05:27 AMjRuutu Wrote:
11-28-2019, 05:58 PMSegi Wrote: The same will likely happen if they decide to stay on STHS. A lot of people who have suboptimal builds, will just retire and recreate as the meta build. If we switch the engine, people will most likely get to reapply most or all of their tpe, so there isn't that big of a reason to recreate.
Could be, but if they stay in STHS there more than likely will be some kind of rules added in for passing/new archetypes for builds?

For sure there would be rules, but from what we know now, it seems that it's impossible to find a set of restrictions that don't make one build superior to any others.
In FHM, a playmaker makes a sniper better, in STHS, running 3 snipers looks to always just be better than 2 snipers and a playmaker. Sure you can restrict the sniper build to a point, where it gets worse than a playmaker one, but then another build would just become the superior one.

caltroit_red_flames · 11-29-2019, 12:48 PM

11-29-2019, 12:44 PMSegi Wrote:
11-29-2019, 05:27 AMjRuutu Wrote: Could be, but if they stay in STHS there more than likely will be some kind of rules added in for passing/new archetypes for builds?

For sure there would be rules, but from what we know now, it seems that it's impossible to find a set of restrictions that don't make one build superior to any others.
In FHM, a playmaker makes a sniper better, in STHS, running 3 snipers looks to always just be better than 2 snipers and a playmaker. Sure you can restrict the sniper build to a point, where it gets worse than a playmaker one, but then another build would just become the superior one.

This is why I see FHM as superior. There may be a best archetype, but if you have a line of just that archetype that line is going to suck. Gotta have build diversity to be successful.

jRuutu · 11-29-2019, 02:28 PM

11-29-2019, 10:43 AMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote: @jRuutu I feel like at this point all I can say is that you'll just have to wait and see. We've said a few times in jere and that we're for every solution, STHS or FHM, and we're going to go with the best one for the league. Also that we're searching for exploit we can in both engines and that we'll be doing our best to make sure they aren't used. So now it's just a matter of trusting the people on the team that are trying to save this league. Know that these are some of the most dedicated people out there who want the same thing as you: the SHL to prosper.

@Wasty sorry you feel that way?

Sounds good to me, hopefully testing provides answers and you guys find the potentially exploitable tactical ideas that might be there!

11-29-2019, 10:51 AMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: I actually share a lot of the same concerns as you, I am hoping to test for overpowered setups and assuming we don't find anything disruptive to the league I plan to share everything I know about fhm with the league, likely in the form of podcasts and videos showing the sim engine. I may not be the best fhm player but I have 1200 hours in it and I'm happy to share everything I know with the whole league. I may actually record a podcast today talking about tactics and roles in fhm.

That is great, looking forward to seeing screenshots/videos from the tests!

jRuutu · 11-29-2019, 02:33 PM

11-29-2019, 12:44 PMSegi Wrote:
11-29-2019, 05:27 AMjRuutu Wrote: Could be, but if they stay in STHS there more than likely will be some kind of rules added in for passing/new archetypes for builds?

For sure there would be rules, but from what we know now, it seems that it's impossible to find a set of restrictions that don't make one build superior to any others.
In FHM, a playmaker makes a sniper better, in STHS, running 3 snipers looks to always just be better than 2 snipers and a playmaker. Sure you can restrict the sniper build to a point, where it gets worse than a playmaker one, but then another build would just become the superior one.

Shame if it truly is like that, I played with scoring as my weakness once here - I did alright with pass first type of player. Had some checking on though, so more of a two-way player really.

Toivo · 11-30-2019, 02:22 AM

11-28-2019, 05:58 PMSegi Wrote: The same will likely happen if they decide to stay on STHS. A lot of people who have suboptimal builds, will just retire and recreate as the meta build. If we switch the engine, people will most likely get to reapply most or all of their tpe, so there isn't that big of a reason to recreate.

Doubtful we'd have any exodus for sticking with an engine that has worked for 50 seasons.

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