Those are the criteria YOU chose, so let's do the head-to-head match-ups based on those:
Scholz vs. Doskocil 5-2
Kennedy vs. Doskocil 4-3
Selich vs. Doskocil 4-3
Emerson vs. Doskocil 4-3
Loses every single match-up even using your cherry-picked stats. Not a snub. Next.
Look I like you guys in Manhattan, I really do, but stuff like this is why I can barely take you seriously in the context of Awards disussions anymore. Every season you complain about someone from your team being snubbed and every time it's not backed up by the stats. At least Emerson had a legitimate case to make.
yeah sure 5-2, but i wouldnt call a 2.0 > 2.1 that much. Doskocil doubled him in SB, Scholz has about 3 less shots on ice against his goalie ever 60 minutes he was on ice. But Scholz also had more takeways, almost double
I see Doskocil edging him out on Hits, SB. With GA, SA being pretty close. a .1 difference in GA/60 and 1 less Shot per 60 minutes. And about the same CF%.
I see these numbers and they look pretty close to eachother, other than Kennedy having 11 more Takeaways than him.
Okay so what about the winner of the award. I see Selich having far better SA numbers than Doskocil, absolutely. Doskocil had more hits, I see them the same in the GvA and TkA department. Doskocil had more Shots blocked, basicallly the same GA/60, and then killed him in GA/60
With emerson you said it yourself its weird because hits and SB are inflated.
Emerson - 132 hits - 19 gva - 48 tka - 235 SB - 3.4 GA/60 - 34 SA/60 - 40.4 CF%
Doskocil 86 hits - 20 gva - 19 Tka - 117 SB - 2.1 GA/60 - 24.5 SA/60 - 60.5 CF%
So Emerson had inflated stats due to being on a shitty team, where Doskocil had better adv stats because of it
I never said Doskocil deserves to win it. I just said that he is underappreciated for the awards committee.
yeah sure 5-2, but i wouldnt call a 2.0 > 2.1 that much. Doskocil doubled him in SB, Scholz has about 3 less shots on ice against his goalie ever 60 minutes he was on ice. But Scholz also had more takeways, almost double
0.1 isn't a big difference but the 8% gap in Corsi sure is, as are the that the three less shots against per game and the decent but not terribly big difference in Hits. And in terms of GAs/TAs both win one category, but Scholz by a much wider margin in the one he took. Really, the only category where Doskocil has an edge here is Shots Blocked.
I see Doskocil edging him out on Hits, SB. With GA, SA being pretty close. a .1 difference in GA/60 and 1 less Shot per 60 minutes. And about the same CF%.
I see these numbers and they look pretty close to eachother, other than Kennedy having 11 more Takeaways than him.
So the categories were Kennedy narrowly wins are too close to call but the ones where Doskocil has a close win, like with his 8 extra hits over an entire season, are significant? Once again, Doskocil only really wins one category here which is Hits. But yeah those two players are pretty close in general, so I don't see any case why Doskocil needed to have made it over Kennedy.
Okay so what about the winner of the award. I see Selich having far better SA numbers than Doskocil, absolutely. Doskocil had more hits, I see them the same in the GvA and TkA department. Doskocil had more Shots blocked, basicallly the same GA/60, and then killed him in GA/60
Well Selich wasn't too high on my list and I don't think he should've won so I can't make his case too much. Also I think you had some typo in your second sentence because it didn't really make sense and mentions GA/60 twice. Did you mean SA/60 for your last point? If so are you misunderstanding that number maybe? A lower SA/60 is better, not worse. So for me it comes down to both players winning big in one category (Corsi for Selich, Blocks for Doskocil) and somewhat in one other (SA/60 for Selich, Hits for Doskocil). Of those categories I would deem those that Selich won more meaningful but that is up to interpretation of course. Plus Selich literally led the whole league in Corsi, Dosko isn't even close to that in either Hits or Blocks.
Quote:With emerson you said it yourself its weird because hits and SB are inflated.
Emerson - 132 hits - 19 gva - 48 tka - 235 SB - 3.4 GA/60 - 34 SA/60 - 40.4 CF%
Doskocil 86 hits - 20 gva - 19 Tka - 117 SB - 2.1 GA/60 - 24.5 SA/60 - 60.5 CF%
So Emerson had inflated stats due to being on a shitty team, where Doskocil had better adv stats because of it
Yeah those two are tough to compare, I mainly included Emerson for completeness' sake since he is what this thread is about. Both players dominate on category and in both cases a good chunk of that is team-related, so really tough to really come to a verdict here.
Quote:I never said Doskocil deserves to win it. I just said that he is underappreciated for the awards committee.
If you want to do support your player then that's fine of course but this really isn't how it comes across at this point anymore. Year after year the same team accuses us in the Awards committee of either incompetence or malice, sometimes more aggressively and sometimes less (you certainly fall in the less category so my response might have been a bit harsh) because they claim that one of their players was "snubbed" even though that player had a case for maybe being in the discussion for a nomination, along with half a dozen or more other players, but certainly wasn't a favorite to win. It happened with Doskocil multiple times now, it was the same with Vent and with who else that I might have forgotten.
At some point this becomes quite insulting for those people that try to put a lot of work and research into their nominations as I would argue I do, only to then be accused of only looking at like two stats or of unfairly ignoring players from certain teams because we "are out to get them" or because we "ignore weaker teams" or whatever the often contradicting arguments are. I (and I'm sure everyone else on the committee) don't have an issue with nominating people from Manhattan if we think they deserve it, I nominated you guys for both the Coach & GM awards, I nominated Larson and McCarthy for player Awards and have pushed hard for you personally to win the Littleton for like the last three seasons. And I wouldn't have had an issue with Doskocil being nominated either, but as I said there were like 10 players or so in that ballpark so over 2/3s of them have to miss out. It's not a slight against any of them.
But there is a difference between wondering why a player wasn't nominated or writing an article making your case as Emerson did, and yelling "snubbed" with barely any explanation provided or accusing us of not putting in the effort to rate your players properly and fairly, which is what you guys regularly do.
Talk about under appreciation from the awards committee
guy with more giveaways than takeaways shouldn’t really be in the convo for best defensive defenseman imo
Yeah good point as well. I wouldn't be too strict here and instead say that his Gva/Tka numbers were even, but if you wanna call someone an elite defensive defenseman I for one would expect at least a few more takeaways than giveaways. If the player doesn't have that then he does need another category or two where he set himself apart from the competition and Dosko simply didn't have that either. He was middle of the pack in Hits, above average in Blocks, very good but not better than his competitors in GA/60 and not particularly impressive in SA/60 and Corsi.
yeah sure 5-2, but i wouldnt call a 2.0 > 2.1 that much. Doskocil doubled him in SB, Scholz has about 3 less shots on ice against his goalie ever 60 minutes he was on ice. But Scholz also had more takeways, almost double
0.1 isn't a big difference but the 8% gap in Corsi sure is, as are the that the three less shots against per game and the decent but not terribly big difference in Hits. And in terms of GAs/TAs both win one category, but Scholz by a much wider margin in the one he took. Really, the only category where Doskocil has an edge here is Shots Blocked.
I see Doskocil edging him out on Hits, SB. With GA, SA being pretty close. a .1 difference in GA/60 and 1 less Shot per 60 minutes. And about the same CF%.
I see these numbers and they look pretty close to eachother, other than Kennedy having 11 more Takeaways than him.
So the categories were Kennedy narrowly wins are too close to call but the ones where Doskocil has a close win, like with his 8 extra hits over an entire season, are significant? Once again, Doskocil only really wins one category here which is Hits. But yeah those two players are pretty close in general, so I don't see any case why Doskocil needed to have made it over Kennedy.
Okay so what about the winner of the award. I see Selich having far better SA numbers than Doskocil, absolutely. Doskocil had more hits, I see them the same in the GvA and TkA department. Doskocil had more Shots blocked, basicallly the same GA/60, and then killed him in GA/60
Well Selich wasn't too high on my list and I don't think he should've won so I can't make his case too much. Also I think you had some typo in your second sentence because it didn't really make sense and mentions GA/60 twice. Did you mean SA/60 for your last point? If so are you misunderstanding that number maybe? A lower SA/60 is better, not worse. So for me it comes down to both players winning big in one category (Corsi for Selich, Blocks for Doskocil) and somewhat in one other (SA/60 for Selich, Hits for Doskocil). Of those categories I would deem those that Selich won more meaningful but that is up to interpretation of course.
Quote:With emerson you said it yourself its weird because hits and SB are inflated.
Emerson - 132 hits - 19 gva - 48 tka - 235 SB - 3.4 GA/60 - 34 SA/60 - 40.4 CF%
Doskocil 86 hits - 20 gva - 19 Tka - 117 SB - 2.1 GA/60 - 24.5 SA/60 - 60.5 CF%
So Emerson had inflated stats due to being on a shitty team, where Doskocil had better adv stats because of it
Yeah those two are tough to compare, I mainly included Emerson for completeness' sake since he is what this thread is about. Both players dominate on category and in both cases a good chunk of that is team-related, so really tough to really come to a verdict here.
Quote:I never said Doskocil deserves to win it. I just said that he is underappreciated for the awards committee.
If you want to do support your player then that's fine of course but this really isn't how it comes across at this point anymore. Year after year the same team accuses us in the Awards committee of either incompetence or malice, sometimes more aggressively and sometimes less (you certainly fall in the less category so my response might have been a bit harsh) because they claim that one of their players was "snubbed" even though that player had a case for maybe being in the discussion for a nomination, along with half a dozen or more other players, but certainly wasn't a favorite to win. It happened with Doskocil multiple times now, it was the same with Vent and with who else that I might have forgotten.
At some point this becomes quite insulting for those people that try to put a lot of work and research into their nominations as I would argue I do, only to then be accused of only looking at like two stats or of unfairly ignoring players from certain teams because we "are out to get them" or because we "ignore weaker teams" or whatever the often contradicting arguments are. I (and I'm sure everyone else on the committee) don't have an issue with nominating people from Manhattan if we think they deserve it, I nominated you guys for both the Coach & GM awards, I nominated Larson and McCarthy for player Awards and have pushed hard for you personally to win the Littleton for like the last three seasons. And I wouldn't have had an issue with Doskocil being nominated either, but as I said there were like 10 players or so in that ballpark so over 2/3s of them have to miss out. It's not a slight against any of them.
But there is a difference between wondering why a player wasn't nominated or writing an article making your case as Emerson did, and yelling "snubbed" with barely any explanation provided or accusing us of not putting in the effort to rate your players properly and fairly, which is what you guys regularly do.
----------------------
Quote:0.1 isn't a big difference but the 8% gap in Corsi sure is, as are the that the three less shots against per game and the decent but not terribly big difference in Hits. And in terms of GAs/TAs both win one category, but Scholz by a much wider margin in the one he took. Really, the only category where Doskocil has an edge here is Shots Blocked.
For stuff like SA/60 and GA/60 it means per 60 mintues the player is on the ice not in a game. So in 60 minutes that both Doskocil and Scholz are on the ice Doskocil allows 3 more shots. Its not in a game Doskocil allows 3 more shots. I do agree Scholz has a wider margin for the GvA vs TkA and that should be factored into it. Doskocil hasnt had the best season in terms of Takeaways. And then for Shots Blocked Doskocil blows him away.
Quote:So the categories were Kennedy narrowly wins are too close to call but the ones where Doskocil has a close win, like with his 8 extra hits over an entire season, are significant? Once again, Doskocil only really wins one category here which is Hits. But yeah those two players are pretty close in general, so I don't see any case why Doskocil needed to have made it over Kennedy.
thats fair, they are close in those metrics. Doskocil has more hits and Kennedy has more takeaways. Other than that they are close. Kennedy has 47 hits and Doskocil has 87 hits, not 8 hits over. Maybe you meant SB? other than that they are close to eachother. now would you argue that Takeways are better than hits? sure. but by these metrics these are close so I can see a case on how Doskocil could have made it over Kennedy yeah
Quote:Well Selich wasn't too high on my list and I don't think he should've won so I can't make his case too much. Also I think you had some typo in your second sentence because it didn't really make sense and mentions GA/60 twice. Did you mean SA/60 for your last point? If so are you misunderstanding that number maybe? A lower SA/60 is better, not worse. So for me it comes down to both players winning big in one category (Corsi for Selich, Blocks for Doskocil) and somewhat in one other (SA/60 for Selich, Hits for Doskocil). Of those categories I would deem those that Selich won more meaningful but that is up to interpretation of course.
I agree with you on this. I dont see Selich winning the bojo. It definitely is us to interpretation on this.
For the Emerson I agree. Dont think I should quote your 2 sentences on it.
And then for the final argument. I get it, especially for the bojo its very hard to judge. I dont envy the job of deciding the winners. I didnt come into the thread and say SNUBBED without any context. I want to create an argument, a back and forth of ideas in order to see where the differences are, and we can respectfully disagree on them. Im not coming in and saying the awards commitee is doing a bad job, I just want to see why they think the way that they are. Its good to have the discourse that we are having, and I appreciate that you are defending your choices. I can see the argument for the players, and I respect it. Like for Emerson I think he does get discredited for being on a shitty team and I think that is something that I dont know how to fix. Its hard with the parity right now for it to judge and I respect that you are trying.
I dont think that anyone on the awards commitee are out to get teams or specific players, that would be stupid. I belive everyone on the awards commitee tries their best and does the research. Like i personally think that Edmonton should have 100% won COTY, based on past criteria of the awards and how they were given out. Edmonton 100% fairly won GMOTY, they brought in a ton of big names and proved it that season.
Quote:But there is a difference between wondering why a player wasn't nominated or writing an article making your case as Emerson did, and yelling "snubbed" with barely any explanation provided or accusing us of not putting in the effort to rate your players properly and fairly, which is what you guys regularly do.
I dont think that we do it. I would like to say that we try to challenge those opinions. I think you see that we each put in effort to explain why somethings are the case and why some things arent the case. I dont think that Doskocil deserves to win the Bojo, but I think he deserves more recognition? yes. Of course he is my player and there is Bias but I think there is cases for a lot of players, especially for an award like the Bojo. Its hard because its hard to define what is good defensivly. is it the defensive stats like SB? is it having great possession numbers like Selich? I dont truley know. In the end its a sim that output numbers we cant watch the games night in and night out like real hockey teams can.
I really do appreciate you responding to me and that we can have these discussions because I think it allows people to see what goes on in the minds of awards commitee's and learn to respect it.
Talk about under appreciation from the awards committee
guy with more giveaways than takeaways shouldn’t really be in the convo for best defensive defenseman imo
thats absolutely fair. I think the one thing that Doskocil lacked is the takeways. Everything else I believe that he was on par as the other players depending on stats.
09-19-2020, 12:24 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: 0.1 isn't a big difference but the 8% gap in Corsi sure is, as are the that the three less shots against per game and the decent but not terribly big difference in Hits. And in terms of GAs/TAs both win one category, but Scholz by a much wider margin in the one he took. Really, the only category where Doskocil has an edge here is Shots Blocked.
So the categories were Kennedy narrowly wins are too close to call but the ones where Doskocil has a close win, like with his 8 extra hits over an entire season, are significant? Once again, Doskocil only really wins one category here which is Hits. But yeah those two players are pretty close in general, so I don't see any case why Doskocil needed to have made it over Kennedy.
Well Selich wasn't too high on my list and I don't think he should've won so I can't make his case too much. Also I think you had some typo in your second sentence because it didn't really make sense and mentions GA/60 twice. Did you mean SA/60 for your last point? If so are you misunderstanding that number maybe? A lower SA/60 is better, not worse. So for me it comes down to both players winning big in one category (Corsi for Selich, Blocks for Doskocil) and somewhat in one other (SA/60 for Selich, Hits for Doskocil). Of those categories I would deem those that Selich won more meaningful but that is up to interpretation of course.
Yeah those two are tough to compare, I mainly included Emerson for completeness' sake since he is what this thread is about. Both players dominate on category and in both cases a good chunk of that is team-related, so really tough to really come to a verdict here.
If you want to do support your player then that's fine of course but this really isn't how it comes across at this point anymore. Year after year the same team accuses us in the Awards committee of either incompetence or malice, sometimes more aggressively and sometimes less (you certainly fall in the less category so my response might have been a bit harsh) because they claim that one of their players was "snubbed" even though that player had a case for maybe being in the discussion for a nomination, along with half a dozen or more other players, but certainly wasn't a favorite to win. It happened with Doskocil multiple times now, it was the same with Vent and with who else that I might have forgotten.
At some point this becomes quite insulting for those people that try to put a lot of work and research into their nominations as I would argue I do, only to then be accused of only looking at like two stats or of unfairly ignoring players from certain teams because we "are out to get them" or because we "ignore weaker teams" or whatever the often contradicting arguments are. I (and I'm sure everyone else on the committee) don't have an issue with nominating people from Manhattan if we think they deserve it, I nominated you guys for both the Coach & GM awards, I nominated Larson and McCarthy for player Awards and have pushed hard for you personally to win the Littleton for like the last three seasons. And I wouldn't have had an issue with Doskocil being nominated either, but as I said there were like 10 players or so in that ballpark so over 2/3s of them have to miss out. It's not a slight against any of them.
But there is a difference between wondering why a player wasn't nominated or writing an article making your case as Emerson did, and yelling "snubbed" with barely any explanation provided or accusing us of not putting in the effort to rate your players properly and fairly, which is what you guys regularly do.
----------------------
Quote:0.1 isn't a big difference but the 8% gap in Corsi sure is, as are the that the three less shots against per game and the decent but not terribly big difference in Hits. And in terms of GAs/TAs both win one category, but Scholz by a much wider margin in the one he took. Really, the only category where Doskocil has an edge here is Shots Blocked.
For stuff like SA/60 and GA/60 it means per 60 mintues the player is on the ice not in a game. So in 60 minutes that both Doskocil and Scholz are on the ice Doskocil allows 3 more shots. Its not in a game Doskocil allows 3 more shots. I do agree Scholz has a wider margin for the GvA vs TkA and that should be factored into it. Doskocil hasnt had the best season in terms of Takeaways. And then for Shots Blocked Doskocil blows him away.
Quote:So the categories were Kennedy narrowly wins are too close to call but the ones where Doskocil has a close win, like with his 8 extra hits over an entire season, are significant? Once again, Doskocil only really wins one category here which is Hits. But yeah those two players are pretty close in general, so I don't see any case why Doskocil needed to have made it over Kennedy.
thats fair, they are close in those metrics. Doskocil has more hits and Kennedy has more takeaways. Other than that they are close. Kennedy has 47 hits and Doskocil has 87 hits, not 8 hits over. Maybe you meant SB? other than that they are close to eachother. now would you argue that Takeways are better than hits? sure. but by these metrics these are close so I can see a case on how Doskocil could have made it over Kennedy yeah
Quote:Well Selich wasn't too high on my list and I don't think he should've won so I can't make his case too much. Also I think you had some typo in your second sentence because it didn't really make sense and mentions GA/60 twice. Did you mean SA/60 for your last point? If so are you misunderstanding that number maybe? A lower SA/60 is better, not worse. So for me it comes down to both players winning big in one category (Corsi for Selich, Blocks for Doskocil) and somewhat in one other (SA/60 for Selich, Hits for Doskocil). Of those categories I would deem those that Selich won more meaningful but that is up to interpretation of course.
I agree with you on this. I dont see Selich winning the bojo. It definitely is us to interpretation on this.
For the Emerson I agree. Dont think I should quote your 2 sentences on it.
And then for the final argument. I get it, especially for the bojo its very hard to judge. I dont envy the job of deciding the winners. I didnt come into the thread and say SNUBBED without any context. I want to create an argument, a back and forth of ideas in order to see where the differences are, and we can respectfully disagree on them. Im not coming in and saying the awards commitee is doing a bad job, I just want to see why they think the way that they are. Its good to have the discourse that we are having, and I appreciate that you are defending your choices. I can see the argument for the players, and I respect it. Like for Emerson I think he does get discredited for being on a shitty team and I think that is something that I dont know how to fix. Its hard with the parity right now for it to judge and I respect that you are trying.
I dont think that anyone on the awards commitee are out to get teams or specific players, that would be stupid. I belive everyone on the awards commitee tries their best and does the research. Like i personally think that Edmonton should have 100% won COTY, based on past criteria of the awards and how they were given out. Edmonton 100% fairly won GMOTY, they brought in a ton of big names and proved it that season.
Quote:But there is a difference between wondering why a player wasn't nominated or writing an article making your case as Emerson did, and yelling "snubbed" with barely any explanation provided or accusing us of not putting in the effort to rate your players properly and fairly, which is what you guys regularly do.
I dont think that we do it. I would like to say that we try to challenge those opinions. I think you see that we each put in effort to explain why somethings are the case and why some things arent the case. I dont think that Doskocil deserves to win the Bojo, but I think he deserves more recognition? yes. Of course he is my player and there is Bias but I think there is cases for a lot of players, especially for an award like the Bojo. Its hard because its hard to define what is good defensivly. is it the defensive stats like SB? is it having great possession numbers like Selich? I dont truley know. In the end its a sim that output numbers we cant watch the games night in and night out like real hockey teams can.
I really do appreciate you responding to me and that we can have these discussions because I think it allows people to see what goes on in the minds of awards commitee's and learn to respect it.
Don't have much to add to this, great closing words and thanks for the constructive discussion and for providing the extensive arguments and reasoning that you did
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