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ACapitalChicago · 05-19-2023, 12:57 AM

Howdy everyone.

It came to SMJHL HO's attention today that the St. Louis Scarecrows traded their S73 3rd round pick twice, first to Carolina here and secondly to YUM here. This is in clear violation of the SMJHL Rulebook 9.c, Trading the Same Pick Twice. We have discussed and found a punishment to be warranted here. While the rulebook typically allows J teams to attempt to rectify their mistakes in double trades, those cases are specifically for upcoming drafts which does not apply as the S71 Entry Draft is happening tomorrow, not the S73 Entry Draft.

The punishment for this per the rulebook shall be:
1. The transfer of STL's S73 STL 2nd round pick to YUM ("The team who receives the pick in question latest shall receive the next highest available pick from the offending team.")
2. The forfeiture of STL's S74 3rd round pick ("The offending team shall subsequently forfeit their next third round pick should it be available.")

As always, teams are able to appeal this should they wish. Tagging @TheSparkyDee & @Gumbaman for visibility.

Furthermore, it was brought to our attention from our discussions and input from various GMs that allowing teams to rectify their faulty trades can put fellow GMs in difficult positions. Should a team double trade a pick and attempt to trade back for it, fellow GMs could potentially extort the offending team knowing the alternative is a punishment. Or, other GMs may feel guilted into accepting an unfair trade hoping to lessen the punishment of their fellow GM. Putting the potential punishment in the hands of other GMs instead of HO stepping in is unhealthy for the league as a whole, frankly. As such we will be adjusting the SMJHL Rulebook regarding the Trading the Same Pick Twice section to read:

i. Should a team trade the same pick twice, the following shall occur:
1. The second trade featuring the double traded pick will be altered to have the offending team's pick adjusted to the next available pick one round higher.
a. If that adjusted pick isn't available it slides to the next available pick one round higher.
b. For example, should a team trade their S71 3rd twice, then the second trade will be altered to be the offending team's S71 2nd. If that S71 2nd isn't available, it becomes their S72 2nd, or S73 2nd, and so on until the next available pick of the next round is available.
c. Should the offending pick be a 1st round pick then the offending team will instead trade away their next available 1st round pick as well as their next available 2nd round pick, but will forgo the usual 3rd round pick forfeiture
2. The offending team's next available 3rd round pick will be forfeit.
a. Unless the offending double-traded pick is a 1st rounder, per i.1.c here.
3. A second offense within 8 seasons will result in immediate probation for the offending GM.

We hope by taking potentially punishing a coworker out of the equation that teams can continue to create fair trades without being able to use punishments as leverage.

S66 Damian Littleton

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***Patty*** · 05-19-2023, 01:15 AM

A downside I see to the new punishments as presented is I can get more/better picks if I bait someone into double trading a pick.

Unless I'm reading wrong it's late

sash · 05-19-2023, 02:41 AM

should be fired

sash · 05-19-2023, 02:43 AM

like how do u do that LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Urq660 · 05-19-2023, 05:53 AM

There are 3 inevitabilities in life:
Death
Taxes
Sparky punishment threads

PremierBromanov · 05-19-2023, 09:14 AM

I say he's innocent

*JURT* · 05-19-2023, 09:17 AM

05-19-2023, 01:15 AMPatty Wrote: A downside I see to the new punishments as presented is I can get more/better picks if I bait someone into double trading a pick.

Unless I'm reading wrong it's late

That's fair, but that was already the case under the old rule, except under the old rules if you baited someone to double-trade you a pick you would also have a chance to get even more picks by playing hardball with them, i.e. if the other team wants to avoid the punishment/probation consequences you could make them pay even more.

For example in this instance, under the old rules, if Carolina and Yukon both decided to play hardball, St. Louis is left with two options:
- Not cave in, give a 2nd to Yukon and lose a 3rd to the void as well as being officially punished
- Settle "out of court" by giving that 2nd and 3rd, or a 1st, or whatever the teams ask for, but avoid being officially punished since they settled "amicably".

There's always going to be ways to negociate in bad faith, but with the new rule there's only one step to it so I see this as an improvement.

***sve7en*** · 05-19-2023, 09:20 AM

05-19-2023, 09:17 AMJURT Wrote: That's fair, but that was already the case under the old rule, except under the old rules if you baited someone to double-trade you a pick you would also have a chance to get even more picks by playing hardball with them, i.e. if the other team wants to avoid the punishment/probation consequences you could make them pay even more.

For example in this instance, under the old rules, if Carolina and Yukon both decided to play hardball, St. Louis is left with two options:
- Not cave in, give a 2nd to Yukon and lose a 3rd to the void as well as being officially punished
- Settle "out of court" by giving that 2nd and 3rd, or a 1st, or whatever the teams ask for, but avoid being officially punished since they settled "amicably".

There's always going to be ways to negociate in bad faith, but with the new rule there's only one step to it so I see this as an improvement.

OK but I want my 3rd upgraded to a 2nd too :(

Aephino · 05-19-2023, 09:22 AM

brb updating my tier list Popcorn

***WannabeFinn*** · 05-19-2023, 10:33 AM

05-19-2023, 02:43 AMsash Wrote: like how do u do that LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Not the place

steveoiscool · 05-19-2023, 11:11 AM

it isn't the offseason without a STL punishment thread

FuzzSHL · 05-19-2023, 10:30 PM

So about that probation thing

Aleksi Kettu

***Gwdjohnson*** · 05-19-2023, 11:30 PM

05-19-2023, 10:30 PMFuzzSHL Wrote: So about that probation thing

probation just means when you get punished again you get a longer probation

***boom*** · 05-19-2023, 11:38 PM

05-19-2023, 10:30 PMFuzzSHL Wrote: So about that probation thing

To be fair, the rule updated after the last time says this:

Quote:If a GM/Co-GM is on probation and violates the rulebook for any of the reasons that they are on probation for, or have been on probation for in the past, they will be removed from their position. Probation when applied here will last for the rest of the current season and then 3 full seasons (A GM being put on probation in the middle of S70 would be on probation for the rest of S70, as well as S71, S72, & S73 for example). GMs will not be eligible for their GM CW pass while on probation.

I guess technically since he wasn't specifically on probation for a double trade but instead a roster error, and hasn't done this specific thing before, it's not technically a violation? I'm confused myself, but it is the letter of the law.

ACapitalChicago · 05-20-2023, 12:43 AM

05-19-2023, 11:38 PMboom Wrote: To be fair, the rule updated after the last time says this:

I guess technically since he wasn't specifically on probation for a double trade but instead a roster error, and hasn't done this specific thing before, it's not technically a violation? I'm confused myself, but it is the letter of the law.

This is correct. Probation at the time when it was applied only covered the specific infractions that resulted in the probation (Contract related infractions). As this is not a contract related violation it does not result in termination. However, SMJHL HO did meet and revise our rules for probation. As of now, further violations while on probation will be handled by SMJHL HO on a case by case basis. Should we feel any violation of the rulebook while on probation is egregious enough, then we may opt for dismissal

S66 Damian Littleton

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