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Fluw · 04-11-2023, 04:40 PM

One thing I would like to add, the Russian flag and eagle is a symbol of Russian Imperialism and aggression to those that were once part of the Soviet umbrella. Ukraine is experiencing that same imperialism, and aggression at this very moment. A comparable to us in the west would be a team sporting a Swastika, or the Japanese Imperial Sun , which we all know would be not acceptable in any way.

That is really what it boils down to, and what Ukrainians see said flag, and symbolism as even if we in the west just go meh Russia bad.

In addition, the player render thing doesn't really matter. I'd say you can still have renders of Russian players, it won't have the same impact as the actual flag/symbols. Not comparable imo unless you are making a Putin render.

Duff101 · 04-11-2023, 04:43 PM

04-11-2023, 04:40 PMFluw Wrote: One thing I would like to add, the Russian flag and eagle is a symbol of Russian Imperialism and aggression to those that were once part of the Soviet umbrella. Ukraine is experiencing that same imperialism, and aggression at this very moment. A comparable to us in the west would be a team sporting a Swastika, or the Japanese Imperial Sun , which we all know would be not acceptable in any way.

That is really what it boils down to, and what Ukrainians see said flag, and symbolism as even if we in the west just go meh Russia bad.

I wonder if any other international flags and symbols in the IIHF are seen as symbols of imperialism…

Credit to Geck, Ragnar and Juni for sigs

***boom*** · 04-11-2023, 04:45 PM

04-11-2023, 04:31 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: Henrik you know i love you so please take this in all seriousness and kindness.

This sword cuts both ways. Most of the big players in this world are committing atrocities on a daily basis. Calling it "whataboutism" isn't an argument (not that you have said it, but it's on the tips of tongues). This isn't even distant past. The United States killed millions in the middle east (with support from European countries). We are currently starving millions of Afghanis. We can point to any country and find massive skeletons. The point here isn't that we can't do anything because if we do it to one we have to do it to all. It just represents to me that people care more about this particular atrocity because they're European victims. And that really cuts me. It's selective outrage. And let's be serious, what is more inclusive than welcoming Russian users and players? Are Russians like... Dogshit or something?

We have such a laser focused hatred against the east and that hatred really does manifest itself in real ways, especially towards people from Asian companies.

It just feels like such a narrow, enclosed point of view to want to banish a country (and let's be honest with ourselves). If Russia becomes depleted, then so be it. It happened many times before. But it is not right for us to be the arbiters of what countries are good and proper. Am i meant to stop business with our contractors who are from Russia, or belarus? Or what about me, named after a goofy soviet from a video game?

There's a right and a wrong way to represent any country. Look no further than John Brown. A true American Patriot. Again, we should be vigilant of people engaging in the Russian larp in a hurtful way, not broad strokes eliminating groups of people.

I don't agree with the "everyone is shit so never try and take a stand on anything" stance. Yes, every country has done (and is doing) shitty stuff, but here we have users who are facing emotional harm right now due to to the traumatic effects of the real-life country who is represented here, and I think it's totally fair to take a step to protect them.

Fluw · 04-11-2023, 04:46 PM

04-11-2023, 04:43 PMDuff101 Wrote: I wonder if any other international flags and symbols in the IIHF are seen as symbols of imperialism…

Are any of those conducting an active genocide, and documented war crimes on a mass scale as we speak going against international law with no plans to stop with Ukraine?

I am quite literally pointing out what it represents to people in Eastern Europe, specifically Ukraine who is undergoing an active genocide as we speak.

**leafsftw1967** · 04-11-2023, 04:47 PM

04-11-2023, 04:37 PMboom Wrote: I wonder how effective the "Independent Athletes of Russia" thing that the IOC/IIHF does would be here. It's kind of a kludge and has been (not without merit) called out in real life for just papering over the issue, but I wonder how the context online being different could work.

Just thinking out loud here.

Personally, its more about the Russian flag and emblem that make me uncomfortable/sick to my stomach so I would be okay with that.

This next part is not directed at you boom but just in general imagine if you were talking with your extended family in Ukraine and they were telling you about hiding in bomb shelters from Russian attacks or hearing about their friend's death/torture/rape to then come onto the SHL (where for a lot of us its an escape from reality), to see a banner with Russia running across the side of the site saying "S?? IHF Champions Russia" with their flags and logos. It would not be a good/welcoming feeling and be a reminder of all the messed up stuff Russia is doing to attack your family, friends and personal ethnic identity.

scudmuffin19 · 04-11-2023, 04:47 PM

*sköldpaddor* · 04-11-2023, 04:58 PM

04-11-2023, 04:43 PMDuff101 Wrote: I wonder if any other international flags and symbols in the IIHF are seen as symbols of imperialism…

This isn't really helping anything here. Obviously virtually every "civilized" nation on earth has a sordid past of oppression of indigenous people, bigoted politicians, and oppressive national policies. But there's a significant difference, in my mind, between countries where we largely have the freedom and constitutionally protected right to voice our discontentment and to be agents of change vs loudly and proudly cavorting about hyping up a nationalist attitude for a place run by a dictatorship that is actively engaging in state-sponsored genocide where "opposition" gets you suspiciously disappeared from the face of the earth. Of course systemic oppression happens here in the US. I'll be the first person to yell about that, (and I do, to the point of irritating people around me), and if you want to have a conversation about that, I'm totally willing to do that. It's not a "gotcha" though like people seem to think it is. If you're coming in here to argue that maybe we shouldn't go around shouting USA USA USA I'll be the first in line (I hate it here!) but all of this feels like really disingenuous attempts to detract from what is clearly a very sensitive issue by pointing in another direction.

I do not see what anybody is hoping to accomplish by coming in here and telling Darian "hey I get that your family is LITERALLY IN DANGER OF DEATH but sorry, suck it up because other nations do shitty stuff all the time so we're not going to bother to take your request seriously"

Like, what is the point you guys are trying to make here? That because all countries have done bad things we should just handwave all of it? I don't know where the line is between a nation being "too bad to pretend to be from there" or whatever, but I have to think there's a way to acknowledge the daily ongoing acts of state-sponsored violence and war crimes and set "SHL Russian players" apart from "HELL YEAH I LIVE AND DIE FOR PUTIN'S MOTHER RUSSIA" even if it's as simple as changing the name to reflect that it's about the Russian athletes themselves and not the flag they play under.

Bfine · 04-11-2023, 05:00 PM

04-11-2023, 04:31 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: Henrik you know i love you so please take this in all seriousness and kindness.

This sword cuts both ways. Most of the big players in this world are committing atrocities on a daily basis. Calling it "whataboutism" isn't an argument (not that you have said it, but it's on the tips of tongues). This isn't even distant past. The United States killed millions in the middle east (with support from European countries). We are currently starving millions of Afghanis. We can point to any country and find massive skeletons. The point here isn't that we can't do anything because if we do it to one we have to do it to all. It just represents to me that people care more about this particular atrocity because they're European victims. And that really cuts me. It's selective outrage. And let's be serious, what is more inclusive than welcoming Russian users and players? Are Russians like... Dogshit or something?

We have such a laser focused hatred against the east and that hatred really does manifest itself in real ways, especially towards people from Asian companies.

It just feels like such a narrow, enclosed point of view to want to banish a country (and let's be honest with ourselves). If Russia becomes depleted, then so be it. It happened many times before. But it is not right for us to be the arbiters of what countries are good and proper. Am i meant to stop business with our contractors who are from Russia, or belarus? Or what about me, named after a goofy soviet from a video game?

There's a right and a wrong way to represent any country. Look no further than John Brown. A true American Patriot. Again, we should be vigilant of people engaging in the Russian larp in a hurtful way, not broad strokes eliminating groups of people.

What are you talking about no one here is being racist towards Asia. People just don’t want to see symbolism of a country that is literally destroying their homeland. It’s not that deep and not that hard to change it. It’s ultimately up to Hockeyfan and IIHF HO but it’s really not a big deal to change Russia to something else, whether it be Ukraine or something like OAR.

Duff101 · 04-11-2023, 05:05 PM

04-11-2023, 04:46 PMFluw Wrote: Are any of those conducting an active genocide, and documented war crimes on a mass scale as we speak going against international law with no plans to stop with Ukraine?

I am quite literally pointing out what it represents to people in Eastern Europe, specifically Ukraine who is undergoing an active genocide as we speak.

Google Guantanamo Bay if you want a tropical island spring break vacation spot next year! I loved my time there!

Also like I know Afghanistan ended like a yearish ago but like… shit was not pretty over there, neither was Iraq and that was all during most of our lifetimes. The point is not whataboutism, the point is that bringing real life governments into this makes things complicated and really hard to separate and if you really wanna never have this problem again I think the only logical solution is replacing IIHF or limiting it to fake countries because we never know when this will happen again.

Like Hockey Canada did some pretty vile things recently, not genocide but things that are very clearly beyond the pale of what is right, and yet their emblems continue to be used here. By your logic isn’t that insensitive or potentially insensitive to survivors of sexual assault?

Credit to Geck, Ragnar and Juni for sigs

Duff101 · 04-11-2023, 05:12 PM

04-11-2023, 04:58 PMsköldpaddor Wrote: This isn't really helping anything here. Obviously virtually every "civilized" nation on earth has a sordid past of oppression of indigenous people, bigoted politicians, and oppressive national policies. But there's a significant difference, in my mind, between countries where we largely have the freedom and constitutionally protected right to voice our discontentment and to be agents of change vs loudly and proudly cavorting about hyping up a nationalist attitude for a place run by a dictatorship that is actively engaging in state-sponsored genocide where "opposition" gets you suspiciously disappeared from the face of the earth. Of course systemic oppression happens here in the US. I'll be the first person to yell about that, (and I do, to the point of irritating people around me), and if you want to have a conversation about that, I'm totally willing to do that. It's not a "gotcha" though like people seem to think it is. If you're coming in here to argue that maybe we shouldn't go around shouting USA USA USA I'll be the first in line (I hate it here!) but all of this feels like really disingenuous attempts to detract from what is clearly a very sensitive issue by pointing in another direction.

I do not see what anybody is hoping to accomplish by coming in here and telling Darian "hey I get that your family is LITERALLY IN DANGER OF DEATH but sorry, suck it up because other nations do shitty stuff all the time so we're not going to bother to take your request seriously"

Like, what is the point you guys are trying to make here? That because all countries have done bad things we should just handwave all of it? I don't know where the line is between a nation being "too bad to pretend to be from there" or whatever, but I have to think there's a way to acknowledge the daily ongoing acts of state-sponsored violence and war crimes and set "SHL Russian players" apart from "HELL YEAH I LIVE AND DIE FOR PUTIN'S MOTHER RUSSIA" even if it's as simple as changing the name to reflect that it's about the Russian athletes themselves and not the flag they play under.

I’ll agree I kinda diverted from my main point that changing a name isn’t necessarily as logistically simple as it seems. I’m fully willing to support a change in a way that doesn’t punish my fed or its new head.

I’m trying to be better about not getting into internet arguments so I’m probably gonna stop here

Credit to Geck, Ragnar and Juni for sigs

***boom*** · 04-11-2023, 05:12 PM

i feel like all this is going in circles so all i'll say is - is your Internet hockey persona worth the harm being done right now to people who are seeing that flag and (rightfully) associating it with death and destruction?

**leafsftw1967** · 04-11-2023, 05:20 PM

04-11-2023, 05:05 PMDuff101 Wrote: Google Guantanamo Bay if you want a tropical island spring break vacation spot next year! I loved my time there!

Also like I know Afghanistan ended like a yearish ago but like… shit was not pretty over there, neither was Iraq and that was all during most of our lifetimes. The point is not whataboutism, the point is that bringing real life governments into this makes things complicated and really hard to separate and if you really wanna never have this problem again I think the only logical solution is replacing IIHF or limiting it to fake countries because we never know when this will happen again.

Like Hockey Canada did some pretty vile things recently, not genocide but things that are very clearly beyond the pale of what is right, and yet their emblems continue to be used here. By your logic isn’t that insensitive or potentially insensitive to survivors of sexual assault?

My point was that Russian symbolism/association tied to acts of genocide occurring in Ukraine honestly makes me feel really uncomfortable. I tried to explain how it has had a direct negative impact on my experience of the site due to my person life to demonstrate why I have been making efforts to reconsider the SHL's association with Russian symbolism. I tried to relate it to other forms of discrimination that have been addressed on this site previously including racism, homophobia, and sexism so that people can try to understand unless you have directly experienced a specific type of discrimination it's really hard to fully understand what someone is truly feeling (ex: to tell someone their feelings are ridiculous or silly just further reinforces the need to consider other's lived experiences when making judgments).

Getting into a political debate about historical atrocities around the world is really just sidetracking the main point of the discussion about a request to consider how Russia's current actions and the site's association with Russian symbolism used to commit war crimes are impacting members on the site (tying it back the SHL's push for inclusivity of all identities and the promotion of it being a safe space).

Duff101 · 04-11-2023, 05:27 PM

04-11-2023, 05:20 PMleafsftw1967 Wrote: My point was that Russian symbolism/association tied to acts of genocide occurring in Ukraine honestly makes me feel really uncomfortable. I tried to explain how it has had a direct negative impact on my experience of the site due to my person life to demonstrate why I have been making efforts to reconsider the SHL's association with Russian symbolism. I tried to relate it to other forms of discrimination that have been addressed on this site previously including racism, homophobia, and sexism so that people can try to understand unless you have directly experienced a specific type of discrimination it's really hard to fully understand what someone is truly feeling (ex: to tell someone their feelings are ridiculous or silly just further reinforces the need to consider other's lived experiences when making judgments).

Getting into a political debate about historical atrocities around the world is really just sidetracking the main point of the discussion about a request to consider how Russia's current actions and the site's association with Russian symbolism used to commit war crimes are impacting members on the site (tying it back the SHL's push for inclusivity of all identities and the promotion of it being a safe space).

I don’t mean to make this some big statement about the collective west or imperialism or whatever, and your feelings are valid.

Tbh my concern is first and foremost the health of the fed and I really appreciate that you considered that.

Credit to Geck, Ragnar and Juni for sigs

ACapitalChicago · 04-11-2023, 05:55 PM

04-11-2023, 04:31 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: Look no further than John Brown.

*cough*

Fwiw, so as to not jump in here and say nothing of value, my personal main takeaway from the story of John Brown is that sometimes an individual must take it into their own hands to fight against tyranny. Should you resist an immoral and unconscionable evil and find no resolution after exhausting all peaceful options, well, then perhaps you might find insight in John Brown's last quote,

Quote:I John Brown am now quite certain that the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away, but with blood.

Any connection to be noticed between John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry and the actions of modern day Russia is left open as an exercise to the reader.

S66 Damian Littleton

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Fluw · 04-11-2023, 06:07 PM

04-11-2023, 05:05 PMDuff101 Wrote: Google Guantanamo Bay if you want a tropical island spring break vacation spot next year! I loved my time there!

Also like I know Afghanistan ended like a yearish ago but like… shit was not pretty over there, neither was Iraq and that was all during most of our lifetimes. The point is not whataboutism, the point is that bringing real life governments into this makes things complicated and really hard to separate and if you really wanna never have this problem again I think the only logical solution is replacing IIHF or limiting it to fake countries because we never know when this will happen again.

Like Hockey Canada did some pretty vile things recently, not genocide but things that are very clearly beyond the pale of what is right, and yet their emblems continue to be used here. By your logic isn’t that insensitive or potentially insensitive to survivors of sexual assault?

I really do not see the point you are trying to make by referencing things that are in no way the same magnitude as a genocide. And I feel like you are totally missing the point on this by a mile.

It's not about bringing real life governments into this I agree. It's about listening to a member of our community who is directly affected by the Russian war of aggression, and has asked politely that a discussion be had about changing said flag.

I simply tried to explain that to Ukrainians the Russian flag is equivalent to the Nazi Germany Swastika and what it stands for, fascism.

My logic is simply, listen to a member of the community when they say something deeply affects them rather than engage in whataboutism. Bringing up Guantanamo, Afghanistan, and Hockey Canada when on the topic of an active genocide against a specific people, when a member of our community has brought up how the symbolism affects them is the insensitive part in my honest opinion.

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